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Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by cletus on Monday January 03, 2022 @12:56AM (#29777804)
This actually deserves to be talked about more.

Authorities seem to stand behind the Wuhan "wet market" theory but there's really no evidence of that, specifically if it came from an animal population, how come 2+ years later we haven't found that animal population? Also the bat coronavirus population is hundreds of miles away so how did this end up in Wuhan?

This brings us to the "lab leak" theory. There are lots of possibilities here. If this is true (and that's a mighty big IF) then my suspicion is that this was an accident and the CCP doesn't necessarily know what happened but there's absolutely incentivized not to find out. I find claims that this was a deliberate release to be unconvincing.

The key factors supporting this theory, or at least are open questions requiring further investigation are:

1. There's really no compelling alternative theory supported by substantial evidence;

2. The WHO has really lost a lot of credibility here. In early 2020, the WHO was bending over backwards not to upset China and not much has changed. In 2021 there was a joint investigation with the Chinese but the scope was pretty limited;

3. There used to be a database of coronaviruses that China had. In late 2019 this was taken offline. To date AFAIK this has never been examined by WHO investigators or any independent authority. Now this doesn't prove anything by itself but you'd think a thorough investigation would include examining it in its scope.

4. A long time (over a year) passed between the start of the outbreak and the investigation. This is a long time for evidence to go cold or "missing".

To compare, the origins of two previous coronavirus outbreaks (ie SARS and MERS) were relatively quickly identified.

No lab worker or official wants to be responsible for a leak (if there was one). No one wants to find out they were responsible. The CCP also doesn't want to set the precedent they're answerable or accountable to international authorities. This is what I mean when I say I suspect the CCP doesn't know and doesn't want to know.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by ggm on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:08AM (#29777861)
Your argument is functionally a syllogism. You assert the argument for an animal host is weak and dismiss it in one sentence but it has been repeatedly observed finding the origin host of viral infection can take years and years.

Secondly you discuss the lab leak theory at length and construct the state of being that because not A it must be B but there is no dichotomy here, there are many choices, including the fantastical which break Occam's razor but alas may turn out to be true. Simply because we have not found a wild host does not make lableak "true" or even more likely.

I have no idea what the origin is. I'm not in the field, I'm not competent to judge. What I read suggests most people who are competent to judge want more evidence.

If your point is that the CCPs exclusion of external verification of theories is proof, I'm sorry but it's just not proof: there are many reasons why the Chinese government does this, guilt is not a given although fear of guilt is plausible. Shaming the state is not easy or wise for people in this political system and "Strong China" Plays inside the government and the party (they are different things btw) as well as differences between ministries, departments, provinces, external parties make this a very complex problem.

Power struggles often have nothing to do with the ostensible reasons they are fought over.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by hattmall on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:20AM (#29777916)
You can judge. You can get all the evidence available to you and make an assessment. You can update that assessment as you gain more evidence, and you can share that with other people. No one has to defer to your authority if you don't make a good case. Stop waiting for "experts" to tell you how to use your judgement. Listening to supposed experts is why we have had such a prolonged battle with COVID with so much non-disease related societal harm.
Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by tempestn on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:55AM (#29778101)
The problem with this argument is that in a complex field, a layperson does not have the baseline expertise needed to evaluate cases made by experts. Try reading a novel mathematical proof published in a journal paper and see if you can weigh the available evidence and make an assessment as to whether it's correct. The only reasonable way to do so as a layperson would be to acknowledge the fact that the proof was peer reviewed by experts, and so is likely correct, and assume that to be the case unless it is later disproven by experts. (A fact you'd also be unable to independently verify.)

In a field like mathematics it's obvious that we don't have the necessary tools to evaluate expert evidence, but the same is true in most complex fields, of which epidemiology is certainly one. The experts of course won't always be right, and their best guesses will evolve as more evidence is gathered, as they should. But asking people without specific domain knowledge, even intelligent generalists, to independently weight expert evidence without resorting to trust of experts is likely to result in less informed decision making, not more.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by larryflint on Monday January 03, 2022 @04:20AM (#29778856)
et Voila, Animal Farm.

We can't let the sheep make up their own minds, we have to make up their minds for them; for they are only sheep of course, and we are the pigs.

I mean, what would happen in one of those stupid sheep had a thought to themselves? They might think

    Hey isn't that a coronavirus reasearch lab right down the street? Maybe
    they know something about this new coronavirus?
I mean, if they starting thinking...we might have a real problem on our hands. Better lock it all down.

....

Human beings are built to defer to *legitamite* authority, its a principle of how we organize ourselves. Doesn't matter if its mathematics or goverment. But that legitamacy must be demonstrated. If a mathematician fails to answer basic mathematical questions, then his authority on the subject comes into question. When the authorities fail to answer basic questions (like where did this virus come from? Why aren't we investigating the wuhan lab? Why was Fauci funding it? Why was the man in charge of the WHO investigation the man who was in charge of funding it?), they are failing to demonstrate *legitamite* authority. In a functioning democracy, that failure would be met with replacement.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by tempestn on Monday January 03, 2022 @06:56PM (#29788879)
I should also point out than when I refer to experts, I'm talking about a consensus of the majority of experts. You can always find an expert to take any position on anything. But when most of the experts in a field agree, they're probably largely right.
Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by ggm on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:27AM (#29777958)
My judgement such as it is, says we need a lot more time to be confident about the root cause and its premature to judge based solely on what is known at present from primary sources.

I also judge most people's opinions are being formed from at best secondary and probably tertiary sources.

I personally think your clarion call isn't helping.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by _heimdall on Monday January 03, 2022 @02:53AM (#29778378)
The irony Herr is that its likely been so long that we won't find enough evidence to determine cause with high confidence.

The fact that a lab leak was even possible but it took over a year to get any researchers into the lab is a serious issue for data collection, not to mention the fact that the CCP got to pick those researchers and didn't share any lab records.

Its important that we learn from how this played out, but seems very unrealistic to think we could pinpoint the initial transmission event now.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by okaram on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:07AM (#29777853)
I think this is mostly asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ...

What definitive evidence can we provide of an animal host now? What definitive evidence can we provide of a lab leak? Of a deliberate release?

I don't think we can provide definitive evidence for any of the options, that proponents of another theory, even the reasonable ones, will accept, so ... I believe it is exactly 3 angels.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by wott on Monday January 03, 2022 @02:29AM (#29778274)
There cannot be evidence of the first, but there can be evidence of the other two (supposing one of the latter options happened). The problem is that there cannot be evidence that those two didn't happen. So if the first option happened, we can never be sure of it; the only way of being sure of something is if one of the other options happened and it is revealed.
Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by seattle_spring on Monday January 03, 2022 @02:06AM (#29778155)
> This actually deserves to be talked about more

Does it? It's brought up in nearly every covid related thread both here and on Reddit. I couldn't avoid talking about it or reading about it even if I tried.

Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by mandmandam on Monday January 03, 2022 @07:31AM (#29780107)
Have we had an independent investigation? No? Then let's talk about it more.
Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by david_draco on Monday January 03, 2022 @07:29AM (#29780094)
The animal population has been known for decades, it is bats in rural Wuhan. People catch the bats and sell them at the Wuhan wet market. Mystery solved.
Re:Evidence for a mouse origin of the SARS-CoV-2 Omicron var... by AlbertoGP on Monday January 03, 2022 @04:59AM (#29779080)
For those interested in the evidence, this has been researched and documented by Charles Rixey, retired Marine and WMD expert.:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/352536433_Prometheu...

His research is ongoing: https://prometheusshrugged.substack.com/