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Re:web0 manifesto by legutierr on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:24AM (#29768504)
“Blockchain” is a class of technologies. I don’t think I would even call it a specific technology. It’s more akin to “packet switching” than it is akin to “Ethernet” or “TCP/IP”.

I can understand some critics’ opposition to cryptocurrencies on public policy grounds (although I think most critics are too broad in their critique), or their opposition to NFTs based on the fact that many NFTs are bullshit don’t represent ownership of anything at all (although I think that will not always be the case).

What I don’t understand—and where these critics loose credibility with me—is their rejection of the entire class of blockchain technologies.

If you don’t want to use a blockchain to build your app, fine! Don’t do it!

But if I want to build my app with a blockchain integration, or using a blockchain to store a portion of my data, what’s your problem with that?

To me, it all sounds very similar to, “don’t build your app using Microsoft tech, only use open source” or “don’t use NoSQL for storage, use an RDBMS instead.” It’s like a new version of those ridiculous religious wars people would have over technology preferences, only now higher-stakes and even more passionate.

Re:web0 manifesto by Debug_Overload on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:49AM (#29768671)
People dismiss blockchain mainly because it's a solution looking for a problem, something that's not true for the other examples in your last paragraph. The fact that the people who are trying to sell it almost always seem to peddle some old scams in a trenchcoat doesn't help.
Re:web0 manifesto by z3c0 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:07AM (#29768776)
It isn't a "solution looking for a problem" anymore than any technology repeatedly shoehorned into unnecessary situations. NoSQL and AI were deployed in the same overzealous fashion, with the latter producing almost as much snake oil as the blockchain scene.

If anything, it's the FOMO-ing developers of these techs that are looking for problems.

Re:web0 manifesto by shafyy on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:13AM (#29768821)
> NoSQL and AI were deployed in the same overzealous fashion, with the latter producing almost as much snake oil as the blockchain scene.

You must be kidding when you say that AI produced as much snake oil as cryptos. Sure, there were/are startups using AI as a selling point when there is not much behind, but in most cases AI actually solves real world problems and adds value. Cryptos are stricly a negative-sum game and ponzi schemes.

Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:39AM (#29769009)
I wouldn't say "in most cases", but I would also point out that AI has probably not been at the center of quite so many scams.
Re:web0 manifesto by z3c0 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:13AM (#29769301)
I am not kidding. I work in the AI industry and I'd go so far as so say that less than half of deployed AI is properly tuned and not overfit. Tons of companies rushed to market half-baked "AI" solutions built by the cheapest "data scientist" they could find.

Just because it's corporate snake-oil doesn't mean it isn't snake oil.

Re:web0 manifesto by rglullis on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:25AM (#29768900)
Tell me how to solve decentralized consensus without having a blockchain, and I'll be the first to drop all my work with it.

Tell me how someone living in a country with heavy capital controls can participate in the global economy on equal footing with someone from a more developed country without blockchain, and you might be a candidate for a Nobel Prize.

Or tell me simply how someone can make a living with work that threatens the status quo without worrying about being ostracized.

If you want to have any kind of hedge against the continuous, systemic institutional failures, you can not simply try to build another system that puts another institution at the top.

Re:web0 manifesto by espadrine on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:50AM (#29769126)
> Tell me how to solve decentralized consensus without having a blockchain, and I'll be the first to drop all my work with it.

I doubt you will, but you asked, so: byzantine Paxos.

The point of the person you are responding to is that solving decentralized consensus is only an academic exercise. If your country wants to prevent your from participating in an economy, it can; the only recourse is political.

Re:web0 manifesto by rglullis on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:37AM (#29769521)
> byzantine Paxos.

Okay, I should've added "permissionless" to the list of desired properties. If you can a priori choose who gets to participate you´d have a point.

> If your country wants to prevent your from participating in an economy, it can

I think that the eternally losing "War on Drugs" should be a lesson that shows this is simply not true. Also, consider how Black Markets are a thing in authoritarian places, not free ones.

So, no, as much as a country can make it difficult for others, they can not outright stop anyone without significant cost to themselves.

Re:web0 manifesto by birracerveza on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:24AM (#29768893)
No, it's a solution that solves the problem of centralization, stop with this "it's a solution looking for a problem" regurgitated rhetoric.
Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:38AM (#29768999)
Standardized APIs solve centralization. The use of Merkle trees to store way too much data and make a distributed computer slower than any individual node has nothing to do with that.
Re:web0 manifesto by birracerveza on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:41AM (#29769036)
No, they don't. They still don't ensure data availability, consistency and you still have to trust the API provider, a third party. Web3 does away will all that. You just use the service.
Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:47AM (#29769102)
Decentralization itself is what gets you availability, not the blockchain structure. A consensus algorithm is what gets you consistency, not a blockchain structure. There's no need to store your data in the most wasteful way to store data and perform compute to get these features.

And "zero trust" is a myth. We can see that from the $7.7 BILLION in fraud that has been committed in crypto markets in just the last year. https://www.zdnet.com/article/scammers-grabbed-7-7-billion-w...

Re:web0 manifesto by legutierr on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:53AM (#29769683)
The blockchain data structure makes the data it encodes tamper-proof. It makes historical data immutable, and it makes the current state of a system and the state transitions that led to the current state fully auditable in a shared-data context. These features enable applications that might otherwise incentivize illicit data tampering (such as applications that deal with asset account balances and ownership records) to be decentralized. I am unaware of another solution to this particular problem.

"Zero trust" is meant to refer to the data layer: because the current state of a blockchain system can be re-generated deterministically from the historical data—which is immutable and fully auditable—you don't have to trust anyone's version of the current system state, even if you are not yourself currently keeping a copy of it.

These technologies do not solve all of the moral and ethical problems that humanity faces, but I don't think anyone is claiming that they do. Blockchains don't stop people from deceiving each other, and they don't make people smarter so that they entirely avoid introducing bugs into their software, and they don't stop people from trying to steal from one another.

But they do make it possible to decentralize high-value data records that would otherwise need to live in high-security environments controlled by governments or well-capitalized businesses that would also need to be trusted 100% not to tamper with those records.

Re:web0 manifesto by birracerveza on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:06AM (#29769253)
How does decentralization give you availability? You need a financial incentive to make data available, that's where the tokens come in. Also stop conflating all crypto with scams, it's a moot point and borders on arguing in bad faith. People use good old money to run scams and rob people all the time. The fact that people use the tool with malicious intents doesn't detract from the value of the tool itself.
Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:11AM (#29769283)
Stop ignoring the fact that scams happen in this system that you proponents say is supposed to solve the ills of the current economic system!
Re:web0 manifesto by birracerveza on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:27AM (#29769425)
I personally don't care about DeFi, I only care about the technological aspect. The tokens are just a mean to use the decentralized service. And again, people misusing the tool does not detract from the merits of the tool.
Re:web0 manifesto by Yizahi on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:51AM (#29769136)
It's because people saying "I'm just building my own app with blockchain, don't hate me", are either lying to us or to themselves.

Every honestly distributed blockchain is scam or soon to be scam, because to incentivize distribution a rewards are required (tokens), and that completely upends social expectations of the app, regardless of its stated purpose. Node keepers and token owners want to pump the token price by any means necessary. App users (if any) are facing an adversary and hostile environment because they are the afterthought, second class, and hodlers are a priority.

Centralized blockchain on the other hand is simply ridiculous, except for the ultra narrow market of version control systems. People are delusional if they think a centralized blockchain will ever be more useful for anything else than a normal DB.

Re:web0 manifesto by egeozcan on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:09AM (#29768790)
Let's take another concept: Don't build your authentication on the idea of communication strictly through immutable cryptographic tokens (JWT). They do shine for resource sharing and caching though! So if someone completely rejected the idea of using cryptographic tokens completely, I'd say, wait a second...

So don't use blockchain to create a digital currency, or anything decentralized because it still needs a central authority to determine the truth. What is the actual use case then?! What app uses it successfully and solves problems that were hard to solve before?

I'm sincere, BTW. You sound like you have some examples in mind.

Re:web0 manifesto by kspacewalk2 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:28AM (#29768919)
Why shouldn't one build authentication on the idea of communication strictly through immutable cryptographic tokens?
Re:web0 manifesto by egeozcan on Sunday January 02, 2022 @11:52AM (#29770355)
You can't log out other sessions, for example, if you don't have a central Auth point.

Anyway, this topic has been discussed to death already, you can also search in HN for detailed articles on the topic.

Re:web0 manifesto by rvz on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:20AM (#29768860)
> If you don’t want to use a blockchain to build your app, fine! Don’t do it!

There you go.

> But if I want to build my app with a blockchain integration, or using a blockchain to store a portion of my data, what’s your problem with that?

Many people incorrectly associate 'blockchain' == 'Bitcoin' with all the issues it has. So anything blockchain is bad / scam / pyramid ponzi / planet destroyer, proof-of-waste (PoW), piece-of-sh*t (PoS) etc.

If web3 with blockchain / NFT / metaverse / etc is not the future, ignore it. Simple. I should not see anyone who hates blockchains, NFTs or metaverse in general to continue to comment on every. single. thread. tweet. or post about it. as it is excruciatingly difficult for some to do this.

So I will expect a ton of responses when another crypto scam happens, but not when an emerging regulated application of a blockchain project is used today.

Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:41AM (#29769035)
> Many people incorrectly associate 'blockchain' == 'Bitcoin' with all the issues it has. So anything blockchain is bad / scam / pyramid ponzi / planet destroyer, proof-of-waste (PoW), piece-of-sh*t (PoS) etc.

The problem is that many people building blockchain projects mean "Blockchain" == "Ethereum", which is basically the same thing.

Re:web0 manifesto by rapnie on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:25AM (#29768899)
I think that the main frustration is that the way that Web3 and Decentralization are promoted in blockchain/crypto circles is as if they are the only means of decentralization, and that Web 3.0 === blockchain/cryptocurrency only. And with that shoving numerous non-blockchain tech under the carpet. Drowned out because not on the hype train where the money fountain is.
Re:web0 manifesto by holri on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:21AM (#29768868)
“don’t build your app using Microsoft tech, only use open source” is not a religious advice but a political and strategic one. It is about power, not technology.
Re:web0 manifesto by moron4hire on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:40AM (#29769016)
What do you think religions are?
Re:web0 manifesto by throwaway1777 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:45AM (#29768649)
Agreed, the problem would be if we were forced to use blockchains, not if some people choose to use them. We aren’t there yet so I don’t see the problem.