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Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by scrollaway on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:45AM (#29758645)
> However the vaccines don't stop you catching or spreading the virus

Vaccines reduce spread. Even if it doesn’t stop spread completely it’s still a significant factor.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by crisdux on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:50AM (#29758699)
It is fairly clear that is it not a significant factor, even before omicron. I don't know how these claims that lack a solid scientific basis still continue. You cannot attribute a capability to a vaccine that has not been confirmed through high quality evidence.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by whimsicalism on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:56AM (#29758772)
https://khub.net/documents/135939561/390853656/Impact+of+vac...

There are a number of studies both identifying a mechanism for covid to have reduced spread due to vaccine and verifying that this occurs empirically. The difference is decreased with newer variants but:

1. Hybrid immunity is even stronger at reducing spread and only possible with prior vaccination

2. There is still non-negligible reduced spread which can be impactful.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by xxpor on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:57AM (#29758789)
it's not clear at all. Where I live, unvaccinated people are >7x likely to test positive.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by moralestapia on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:47AM (#29758658)
>Vaccines reduce spread.

In this case, they don't.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by whimsicalism on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:49AM (#29758690)
Uh, source? Media very much likes to simplify these things, but if you think of this in a probabilistic/continuous manner, rather than a "yes spread vs no spread" approach, the vaccines obviously reduce spread?
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by moralestapia on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:58AM (#29758798)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risk-of-vacci...

You're right that there's no definite answer to this, but the general consensus among doctors is that it doesn't prevent the virus from spreading.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by omarhaneef on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:11AM (#29758972)
From the article you post:

“ In a November press conference, Tedros Ghebreyesus, the director-general of the WHO, said that the vaccines were 60 percent protective against spreading the virus prior to the arrival of the delta variant. That number has dropped to 40 percent post-Delta. Omicron may worsen the problem, if, as suspected, it is more transmissible and leads to many more breakthrough infections.”

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by scrollaway on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:00AM (#29758834)
“Doesn’t prevent” isn’t the same thing as “doesn’t reduce”.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by moralestapia on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:09AM (#29758940)
No one really knows, actually, and the reduction (if it's there) could be marginal.

OTOH, the measures that are being implemented for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated are out of proportion based on the evidence we have.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by MiroF on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:03AM (#29758871)
You really don't see how you're playing into exactly the fallacy they're critiquing?
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by throwaway55421 on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:19AM (#29759080)
Moving from 100% infected to 100% infected is not a reduction.

At some point, there is no realistic difference between R=10 and R=7. Everyone is getting this. Some of us have known that since March 2020.

If your theory includes "avoid being infected with coronavirus" and you live in a democratic country it is a flawed theory. Only full home isolation or hazmat suit rituals will suffice.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by jquery on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:30AM (#29759228)
Overwhelmed ICUs and hospitals beg to differ that reducing transmission rate is useless. Reducing virulence is absolutely worthwhile even if eventually everyone will get infected at some point.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by throwaway55421 on Saturday January 01, 2022 @11:23AM (#29759842)
In fact the opposite is true. If everyone gets coronavirus in a two week period, ICU is less overwhelmed for the rest of the year. A lot of susceptible people die, of course.

If you attempt to spread it out and succeed, you're at 100% capacity basically all of the time, plus 99% of people get to deal with the fact that coronavirus restrictions are utterly miserable.

Omicron has probably made all of this irrelevant anyway, it's so contagious that effectively everyone who goes outside is getting it this month. 1 in 15 in London right now and that's only the confirmed cases I believe.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by scrollaway on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:33PM (#29761159)
I'm vaccinated and effectively boosted. I've been going out tons and not being careful at all. I kissed my girlfriend recently who had as it turns out Omicron at the time. I have yet to catch it.

"Everyone" is a significant stretch. Yeah its seriously contagious but you, an engineer, should know better than deal with such absolutes. Viruses burn out long before they infect everyone, even without vaccines and even if they're extremely contagious.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by lordloki on Saturday January 01, 2022 @07:06PM (#29764261)
You might want to knock on some wood.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by throwaway55421 on Saturday January 01, 2022 @06:28PM (#29763975)
Let me know next month, I guess.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by scrollaway on Saturday January 01, 2022 @07:20PM (#29764350)
Happily. And i fully realize that i obviously am not immune to this and could catch it at any point. My point was that just because it's highly transmissible doesn't guarantee transmission.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by throwaway55421 on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:09PM (#29765039)
Well sure. I apologize for using the word "everyone", I'm using it as a colloquialism.

We're not far off 1 in 5 _confirmed_ in the UK and most of that was pre Omicron.

Based on the experience of my friendship group I believe that huge numbers of people have probably had it and not even noticed. I finally had a positive test and it was indistinguishable from the other 30 times I've woken up a bit tired in the morning over the past two years.

You have to remember that a lot of people aren't tuned in to the "omg test every time you move" stuff.

[dead]
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by simonh on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:09AM (#29758944)
Omicron, which is incredibly infectious, came along after the vaccines did, ergo the infection rate went up after the vaccines were introduced. The two factors have nothing to do with each other though.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by calebm on Saturday January 01, 2022 @01:36PM (#29761191)
You're saying there is no chance that the vaccine facilitated the evolution of the variants (you know, like how not completing a round of antibiotics can foment evolution)?
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by scrollaway on Saturday January 01, 2022 @02:50PM (#29761936)
Both Delta and Omicron came from severely and notoriously undervaccinated countries. They’re prime examples as to why we need first world countries to help with equitable access to vaccines everywhere.

Unmitigated spread accelerates evolution. Mitigating the spread slows it down.

Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by whimsicalism on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:50AM (#29758706)
What kind of reasoning is this? Is this the sort of logic you would use on the job?
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by micromacrofoot on Saturday January 01, 2022 @09:53AM (#29758726)
you seem to be ignoring the fact that we’ve ended up with 2 variants that are more contagious… with the purpose of implying vaccines are to blame? complete nonsense
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by kolanos on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:21AM (#29759106)
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by micromacrofoot on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:34AM (#29759262)
ok now where’s the link that provides evidence of this happening with covid? or are you just guessing?
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by kolanos on Saturday January 01, 2022 @12:14PM (#29760389)
I'm just pointing out that your claim that a vaccine making a virus more virulent being "nonsense" is not supported by >50 years of scientific research. Especially if that vaccine is leaky, which the current vaccines appear to be.
Re:Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemplo... by micromacrofoot on Saturday January 01, 2022 @04:15PM (#29762894)
it’s nonsense on the current subject, which is covid… not sure we need the gymnastics of “technically it could happen” here