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Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by csunbird on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:18PM (#29751463)
Yup, and we will end up paying 50% more for our energy usage, just because of political swings.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by dv_dt on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:19PM (#29751477)
Avoiding nuclear will save you money in the long run though
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by wildmanxx on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:23PM (#29751528)
Sad that this is downvoted. The hidden cost of nuclear is one of the biggest issue the tech-affine crowds tend to ignore and not want to hear about. You may not pay it on your utility bill, but society and later generations will pay it.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by Tenoke on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:54PM (#29751895)
Except Germany has largely been replacing it with coal (and gas) which has costs paid in lives today rather than in unlikely future hypotheticals.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by Zigurd on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:52PM (#29751876)
Almost every nation with nuclear power has underestimated decommissioning costs. Those costs will go on long after the lifespan of the power plant.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by euler2100 on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:58PM (#29751932)
Care to explain how exactly? I'm genuinely curious.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by belorn on Friday December 31, 2021 @04:36PM (#29752763)
Energy subsidies in the EU says the opposit: https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/default/files/annex_to_the...

Countries that need a lot of reserve energy is paying a lot of subsidies to fossil fuels. Year in, year out. First you need to pay them in order to keep the plants on standby when renewables are plenty, and then you need to pay them again when demand exceeds the productions of renewables. The outcome is very large and steady stream of money going into the pockets of those who invest into fossil fuel.

Nuclear would need a lot in order to catch up to the same level of subsidies.

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by ZeroGravitas on Friday December 31, 2021 @05:02PM (#29752982)
Your document's graph shows that France, and a bunch of other countries with nuclear, are subsidizing fossil fuels more than Germany.

That seems to be proving the oppposite of your point.

It's also interesting that France has generic "electricity" subsidies that are bigger than their "nuclear" subsidies and yet 70% of their electricity is nuclear.

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by belorn on Friday December 31, 2021 @07:29PM (#29754079)
The generic "electricity" subsidies in France seems similar to other countries, so my read is that they are things like transmission lines and other costs that is independent of the technology that generated the power.

Could you explain the logic behind that idea that France subsidizes to fossil fuel is proof that nuclear is expensive? To me it is proof that the fossil fuel industry will extract its cut as long as the grid is dependent on it.

Also, a technical details. In actually billions, France is not subsidizing fossil fuels more than Germany. France total subsidize is about half of Germany, so the actually money that goes to fossil fuels are quite much smaller as a result.

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by ZeroGravitas on Saturday January 01, 2022 @07:10AM (#29757662)
Someone said nuclear is expensive (compared with renewables) which is factually correct.

You said that this was wrong, because countries that deployed renewables needed to pay fossil fuels to standby and then pay them again when there's no wind or sun.

To back this up you pointed to a document about level of subsidies.

That document shows that Germany gives less subsidies to fossil fuels than other countries with nuclear plants, notably France, as a percent of GDP.

You now appear to be trying to wiggle out of this on a technicality because Germany has a bigger economy than France, though even then the final numbers are 12.2 billion vs 11.5 billion.

But, let's pretend that's what you were saying, oh look, countries with nuclear on average subsidize fossil fuels more in absolute terms.

(This is because they are bigger economies, so this is an entirely spurious correlation but even playing by your changed rules, your document doesn't support your argument).

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by luckylion on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:48PM (#29751830)
As a leading politician of the German social democratic party famously said: a kwh you don't use is least expensive. I guess they'll save plenty of money when there's power rationing.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by wildmanxx on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:21PM (#29751509)
Which is a good thing. Just converting energy sources is not going to save us. We need to tackle the energy sinks too, i.e., getting smarter about how we use the available energy, i.e., mostly being more energy efficient. ("We" as in "humankind".) Raising prices is the right incentive here. In the long run, +50% is not actually that bad. There is room for a lot more.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by _dain_ on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:24PM (#29751547)
paying way more for electricity is not a good thing, sorry.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by wildmanxx on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:46PM (#29751811)
Funny, I had this exact discussion with a colleague at work the other day. She claimed this is nonsense and won't change anybody's mind.

Then she mentioned that she just had bought a new car. I asked what kind, it's a hybrid. I asked why? Well, because her old car was using so much fuel, and with recent price hikes, that became too expensive, so she just bought one that was significantly more fuel efficient.

The _exact_ same person! Just 2 minutes after claiming monetary incentives don't work demonstrated that it actually worked for her!

I have high hopes that price hikes are what convinces people to change their behavior. Not ads, not appealing to ethics or conciousness or "the future of your kids" or pictures of dying polar bears. You need to feel it in your wallet, then you act, plain and simple.

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by luckylion on Friday December 31, 2021 @04:40PM (#29752805)
> You need to feel it in your wallet, then you act, plain and simple.

In that case, we should make the price of power relative to your wealth, shouldn't we? I'm guessing you're an academic and work in tech or consulting, so you make two, three times the national average if you live in Germany. Trippling the price of power will barely register on your level, so you have little incentive to conserve energy. However, if we said that e.g. a kwh costs 1/15000 of your personal wealth, you'd have a lot of incentive, because even if you start the year as a billionaire, you'd be broke if you used 15000kwh.

I have a feeling that none of the -typically well-off- proponents of "we must make the people pay more so that they stop consuming" will be a fan of that.

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by 988747 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:36AM (#29811177)
Hybrids are not the same as electric. They get their fuel savings from the fact that they can convert kinetic energy from braking back to electricity. Plus the fact that electric engines are more efficient way to pull off (which is where the ICE wastes most fuel). None of those things require an external electricity source.
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by jschveibinz on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:49PM (#29751844)
I tend to agree with your approach. Charging more for electricity and other energy will likely reduce demand and consumption.

I recently purchased a hybrid vehicle, and I find myself much more conscientious about how much energy I am using.

I wonder: if every house only had a certain allotment of energy each day to use at the “regular” price, would energy consumption go down?

Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by nradov on Friday December 31, 2021 @06:03PM (#29753431)
Would a house with 8 residents get the same allotment as a house with 1?
Re:Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants by Ekaros on Friday December 31, 2021 @02:54PM (#29751903)
Maybe we should take step further. Make energy cost non-linear. Make it cost exponentially more with increased use. So if you do not use lot you pay base rate per unit. If you use lot you pay price multiple to the base rate per unit.