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Re:You Can't Win by pm90 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @07:10PM (#29731828)
Having worked on b2b software for a while, targeting users rather than buyers really resonated with me. A lot of b2b software is quite simply garbage. None of the amazing UX patterns that we have come to accept as baseline for b2c are present in b2b software (for the most part). User feedback is rarely solicited; if it is, it’s not prioritized by product teams. And the reason is very simple: users don’t matter. Unlike b2c users who can just leave, b2b users are being paid to use the software as a tool to get something done. They often have very little say over what product needs to be purchased. Even if there might be outliers, the industry as a whole doesn’t prioritize users so the market is also pretty small. The decision makers are executives who are weighing a list of (supposed) features, integrations etc. and price.

It’s good to see freshworks use a different approach and succeed with it, I wish them the best.

P.S: I’ve used Zendesk a lot and it ranks among the worst tools I’ve used (a few rungs above JIRA). I hope I get to use Freshworks equivalent at some point.

Re:You Can't Win by bberenberg on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @07:47PM (#29732138)
The teams at Zendesk and Atlassian also think they’re building for users. I doubt Freshworks is any different other than this being their marketing.
Re:You Can't Win by joe-collins on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:03PM (#29732248)
It's nice that they think that, but whether they believe so or not, I have never heard any user speak well of Zendesk.
Re:You Can't Win by danielodievich on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:03AM (#29733810)
After using Zendesk for 6 years, I am now forced to chew broken glass seasoned with sand and kitty litter that is Salesforce's Support portal. Yeah it is that bad. I so miss Zendesk
Re:You Can't Win by theonemind on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:38PM (#29732508)
Zendesk is pretty good for a ticketing system. I don't generally speak well of ticketing systems, but I do speak badly of them, except for Zendesk!
Re:You Can't Win by actually_a_dog on Thursday December 30, 2021 @05:10AM (#29735365)
I don't know if it's still this bad, but, last time I used Zendesk, it was alright, until you had to search for anything. I was never able to find anything using the builtin search functions.
Re:You Can't Win by tshaddox on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:24PM (#29732417)
How much of that is because people often aren’t excited about the work you do in Zendesk even if Zendesk was a good tool for getting the job done? I’ve never heard anyone speak well of a particular model of plunger either.
Re:You Can't Win by smichel17 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:37PM (#29732891)
Allow me to be the first. Okay, not a plunger, but a very similar product: After using a litter-lifter scoop (for cleaning a cat's litterbox), I placed a bulk order so I'll have a lifetime supply (plus extras to give as gifts), even if they go out of business, because they really are just that good. No affiliation, just a happy customer.

https://litter-lifter.com/

Re:You Can't Win by pm90 on Thursday December 30, 2021 @10:54AM (#29737720)
This is a fair question. Bad tooling does exacerbate already difficult or unlikable tasks though. You don't have to be excited about using Zendesk; but if it gets in your way rather than making it easier to get tasks done, that's when it leads to hate.
Re:You Can't Win by naravara on Thursday December 30, 2021 @01:21AM (#29734189)
It’s less about the teams and more about who calls the shots structurally. What’s the balance of power between by engineering, product owners, sales, etc. in setting features and priorities? How are they planning for design and rollout of new features?

It’s not enough for all the individuals in the company to think or want to do things a certain way. Leadership has to be very intentional about making sure decision making and priority setting come out that way on balance.

Re:You Can't Win by stymaar on Thursday December 30, 2021 @03:59AM (#29734994)
Atlasian, really?
Re:You Can't Win by pm90 on Thursday December 30, 2021 @12:45PM (#29739010)
Having worked at shitty organizations, it is possible that front line workers care deeply about the product users but they’re not being heard by those who prioritize what should get done. Not saying that’s necessarily what’s happening at Atlassian; just want to point out the complexity of the situation.

What I found nice about FreshWorks is the leadership is aligned (or at least says they are) with that goal.

Re:You Can't Win by tshanmu on Thursday December 30, 2021 @05:57AM (#29735655)
not sure if people realise it - Freshdesk grew out a comment around how bad Zendesk is on HN right here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358398
Re:You Can't Win by nine_k on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:23PM (#29732397)
I suppose that tools which are painful to use must lower the users' performance.

Why is this not a visible metric for the buyers?

Re:You Can't Win by porknubbins on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:38PM (#29732897)
As someone who has used terrible to ok b2b apps my whole career I think people who are not programmers/designers don’t even think along those lines. “So the employee has to click seven times instead of one? Thats what I pay them for” kind of mentality. The only good news is the worst apps seem to die off over like 5 years.
Re:You Can't Win by el-salvador on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:50PM (#29732975)
Not only B2B. Also online education. Blackboard, an LMS, comes to mind. It's the kind of software that looks nice in a presentation but it's usability is terrible. Getting to the latest content of a class requires a dozen clics and lots of scrolling.
Re:You Can't Win by girvo on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:58PM (#29733036)
Christ I despise Blackboard.

And christ I despise Moodle, too: the developer experience working with that back in the early 2010s was horrific.

I'm scarred from working with/on LMSes at this point. SCORM gives me nightmares.

Re:You Can't Win by civilized on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:43PM (#29732538)
Because executives at Generic BigCo don't understand or care about their employees' productivity.
Re:You Can't Win by nine_k on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:01PM (#29732647)
This is my question: why this disconnect? The employees' productivity should be exactly what puts money into the executives' pockets.

I suppose that halving productivity won't go unnoticed. Why smaller wins like 10% don't matter to them?

Re:You Can't Win by quadrifoliate on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:55PM (#29733410)
> I suppose that halving productivity won't go unnoticed. Why smaller wins like 10% don't matter to them?

Believe it or not, Silicon Valley BigCos are much better at seeing that this matters, and building custom stuff for their employees when necessary. It's not a coincidence that about half of the top 10 companies in the US by market cap are from SV.

From a traditional perspective, Google and Facebook are "just" advertising firms if you see where their revenue comes from; but they have historically done things that go counter to the traditional cubicle farm company like allowing employees more freedom about what to work on, putting in bright colors and such. These things have an effect on productivity, it's just harder to demonstrate a direct relation.

Re:You Can't Win by lazide on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:39PM (#29732901)
Too much noise frankly, and often actual output, let along profit, has little to do with any individual employees productivity. And most employees are part of a relatively small silo which would require extensive work to really figure out how to make them productive, and if they got more productive, the rest of the organization is likely to tarpit them.

Think of it as an army - infantry may be visible on the ground, but no matter how awesome an individual infantry person is, their transport folks, logistics folks, planning folks, etc. have a far more important role in winning the war. And everyone has to be effective, or that war won’t be won.

Re:You Can't Win by xxpor on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:19PM (#29732766)
People who study the US economy have been asking this for over a decade now

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2021/article/the-us-productivit...

Re:You Can't Win by solveit on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:31PM (#29733212)
> I suppose that halving productivity won't go unnoticed.

Perhaps if the halving was instantaneous. Over any substantial period of time? I have my doubts.

Re:You Can't Win by Elof on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @08:46PM (#29732560)
For what it’s worth, I’ve implemented Freshworks and while their customer service is excellent their software is meh. Moved to Zendeak and very happy
Re:You Can't Win by dqpb on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @09:58PM (#29733035)
> A lot of b2b software is quite simply garbage

Netsuite is so terrible it boggles the mind.

Re:You Can't Win by doublescoop on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:10PM (#29733092)
ERP systems like Netsuite may or may not be good, but a huge portion of the bad experiences most users have with them has to do with configuration rather than the system itself.

There's an argument to be made that great systems can't be misconfigured, but the "everything and the kitchen sink" attitudes most of these business back-end systems are built with isn't really conducive to opinionated expertise driving product design.

Re:You Can't Win by thwarted on Thursday December 30, 2021 @02:40AM (#29734590)
I had this experience with Salesforce. People without any actual software creation/maintenance or system administration experience having administrator rights in Salesforce ends up being a mess and a nightmare. Data hygiene ends up terrible, because you can add any fields you want anywhere, you end up with fields named customer, customerid, customername, customer_name, cust, custid, with none of them being canonical, or validated, of different types. And people end up having put a bunch of data in a field named "cutsomer", with a misspelling that everyone just accepts.

I'm not a big fan of Salesforce in general (did they add, uh, XREF support in validators yet? Sorry, I'm forgetting the terms) but I do think it gets a bad rap mainly because a bunch of non-technical people are often tasked with setting it up and there's no discipline in it's configuration or use. It can be made to work reasonably well, but it rarely gets to that point.