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Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by Eric_WVGG on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:00AM (#29725351)
Alright, I’ve got one that I don't see on your list, it’s been on my mind for years. What about the goldfish problem?

Goldfish grow to fit their containers. Keep a little 1-inch goldfish in a bowl, it’ll stay that size. Toss it in a koi pond and in no time you’ll have something approaching the size of a housecat.

People are like this. A family might be scratching by on $40k/year. Dad gets some windfall or promotion and is making $60k/year. So did he finish out the year in the same house with $20k in the bank? Of course not, he’s paying for all the clothes and goods that he couldn’t afford before.

Ten years later he’s gotten promoted to making $120k/year. Now is there money in the bank, or are they living in a bigger house and driving a nicer car?

This is what worries me about any climate plan that is only based on clean energy. If driving, for example, gets cleaner, do we use 50% less petroleum, or keep burning the same amount of petroleum on different projects? (And what about all the non-tracked pollution caused by tire wear?)

This problem is even more stark when people talk about atmospheric carbon capture. If we're emitting X tons of carbon per year, and recapture Y tons, will we continue to emit X, or start emitting X + Y?

None of this is reason not to pursue renewables and electrification, but I think it’s inescapable that any "primary solution" has to be a reduction in consumption.

Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by oezi on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:08AM (#29725425)
This is all fine as long as all externalities are included in the price of consumption. Currently burning fossils is just way too cheap for the damage it does.
Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by pyrale on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @11:52AM (#29726622)
> This is all fine as long as all externalities are included in the price of consumption.

Just like a software team scaling a product is going to discover new scale issues, we discover new externalities on a regular basis.

Hoping that we can discover all externalities ahead of time and price them is an impossible objective.

Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by jl6 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:14AM (#29725489)
It’s a great question, but if resources are genuinely clean, ethical and renewable, is it a problem to consume them? Perhaps the question is how to determine whether the things we consume genuinely are clean, ethical and renewable or not.
Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by nicoburns on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @11:39AM (#29726459)
The issue is that nothing is really cost free. Windfarms are better for the environment than alternatives, but they still have a significant impact. And that will increase if the best (low impact) sites get used up, and we still need to find space for more.

I think reduction in consumption has to be part of the solution too.

Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by edhelas on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:04AM (#29725384)
Big +1 on that one.

France goal to meet Paris agreement is actually to reduce by ~5% per year ALL energy consumption. -5% is roughly what we had with 3 lockdowns in 2020. So it's basically a COVID added to a COVID each year, for 30 years.

That's no matter what you do in your actual energy deployment and investment.

Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by zardo on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @02:19PM (#29728805)
> Keep a little 1-inch goldfish in a bowl, it’ll stay that size.

In much the same way that keeping a puppy in a tiny kennel full of it's own filth will stunt it's growth.

https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/goldfish-myt...

Re:The world’s biggest offshore wind farm, Hornsea 2, genera... by pjc50 on Wednesday December 29, 2021 @10:13AM (#29725483)
In the context of energy, this is known as the "Jevons paradox": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox