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Re:My career of treating patients has ended by informationally on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:33PM (#29633527)
The real question is why have we engineered our environment so unhealthy choices are so easy to make. There are systemic issues here that go beyond individual choices. Social media is also part of the equation and we are now seeing the kind of damage it is doing to the epistemic commons. Everyone believes whatever they want to, safely cocooned in their own media echo chambers. The longer this state of affairs persists the worse things will get. Inability to deal with a pandemic is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's great that this doctor can share his experience but why is he posting this on Reddit? Why isn't this information available from trusted media sources? And for that matter, why aren't there any such trusted sources that everyone can agree is acting in their best interests and providing them with worthwhile and pertinent news?

Democracies can not survive without functional news and media sources.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by chrsig on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:39PM (#29633555)
> It's great that this doctor can share his experience but why is he posting this on Reddit?

Because doctors are people, and they just wanted to get the experience off their chest without any personally identifying information being disclosed?

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by hirako2000 on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:57PM (#29633674)
or it's simply a political post in disguise on reddit, like we can find all over forums since the pandemic became so political.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by chrsig on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:09PM (#29633748)
Given the subreddit, I don't think there's much in the way of disguise happening.

I don't find the post itself to be political at all though. It's the recount of a doctor's recent experience being physically assaulted after refusing to treat an unvaccinated covid patient with ivermectin and vitamin-c, believing that the former may be actively harmful to their health, and the latter simply ineffective.

The post isn't political. It only seems political because the rejection of modern science is along a political line.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by timr on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:42PM (#29633971)
> It's the recount of a doctor's recent experience being physically assaulted after refusing to treat an unvaccinated covid patient with ivermectin and vitamin-c, believing that the former may be actively harmful to their health, and the latter simply ineffective.

If this doctor believes that ivermectin is "harmful", the doctor was so poorly informed that medical fact was mixing up with something he saw on CNN. The assertion about effective dosage being lethal, in particular, was completely fictional -- I don't believe that it works, but the people advocating for it aren't talking about crazy doses.

Ivermectin is a very safe drug. It is given to millions of people a year to prevent parasitic infections. There is a large RCT underway to see if is an effective therapeutic for Covid-19. We should all hope that it works. This incessant political polarization of science has to stop.

Everything in this reads like a low-quality re-hash of click-bait headlines from the last year, several of which were completely debunked.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by na85 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:35AM (#29634654)
Just get vaccinated already.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by momdad420 on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:57PM (#29634055)
Except it hasn't been shown yet to be effective against Covid-19 yet. So why would they prescribe it? The irony is you're saying the doctor got it from CNN when antivaxxers have been screaming about ivermectin for months, without any proof it's effective.

>This incessant political polarization of science has to stop.

Lol. In comments to a post about a doctor venting about being assaulted for not giving into conspiracy theorists demands re: treatment, and people say he's making it "political". Anyone can doubt the veracity all they want, there's 1000 more stories just like this.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by timr on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:15AM (#29634155)
> Except it hasn't been shown yet to be effective against Covid-19 yet. So why would they prescribe it? The irony is you're saying the doctor got it from CNN when antivaxxers have been screaming about ivermectin for months, without any proof it's effective.

Didn't I write that I don't believe it's effective? I'm not sure who you think you're arguing with, here.

The point is, this person made a specific claim -- that the "effective dose" would be so high as to be fatal. That claim is so laughable and baseless in fact that it calls into question the credibility of the entire story. No informed doctor would say such a thing. We simply don't know what the "effective dose" is (if any), but we know what other people are recommending as effective doses, and these are not toxic.

When "doctors" go on QAnon forums on reddit, and post things that sound like re-mixes of CNN headlines while making egregious mistakes of medicine, at the very least it should make you question their objectivity, if not the credibility of the claim.

[dead]
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by dang on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @11:32AM (#29638979)
We've banned this account for repeatedly and egregiously breaking the site guidelines. Not what this site is for!

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by deschutes on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:57AM (#29634428)
It's pretty easy to understand. The idea is that the recommended doses are demonstrably not lethal. They may or may not be effective. The effective dose (if any) may or may not be lethal.

I don't know enough to evaluate any of the claims, I only wish to note the logic is pretty easy to follow.

I suspect you already understood all of this and chose to misunderstand to ... "win" the argument?

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by dang on Wednesday December 22, 2021 @02:13PM (#29653715)
Please edit swipes out of your posts here. Your comment would be fine without that last bit.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by momdad420 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:04AM (#29634473)
Except what you wrote isn't what the parent comment wrote. If we know what doses other people are prescribing as "effective", then we do know the effective dose. Their immediate sentence before said we don't know the effective dose. And you accuse me of being obtuse. This is aside from the point that there's an effective (and not lethal dose) of Ivermectin for treating parasites. It does not follow that that same dosage would be effective for covid. We have no idea what that effective dose might be for covid, if any. It could be lethal, it could not be. That's the entire point.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by crawfordcomeaux on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:19AM (#29634186)
The reason to prescribe it is to add another test subject to the study. The fact that there isn't a protocol for people to organize a public study of their own bodies suggests a patriarchal approach to medicine science.

People learn faster when they get to choose their own options.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by informationally on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:09PM (#29633745)
Correct, how do we even know this guy is an actual doctor? Maybe he's some insane person that enjoys collecting internet points.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by chrsig on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:13PM (#29633776)
You don't. You can either proceed to converse taking that they are on faith (and a consistent comment history over time), or not. You're not going to get satisfying confirmation one way or another.

A conversation centered around the identity of the person is much less interesting than a conversation about the contents of their post.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by mmcgaha on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:44PM (#29633984)
The mention of Q is what makes me think it is fake. My whole family is conservative; I have a German friend who is way out in right field (I love her but she is coo coo for coco pops), and I work with folks who most would consider fringe right. Not a single one of them have ever mentioned Q in a positive manner. As far as I can tell Q is an internet hoax. Yes I know there are people online who say they follow Q, but I just don't know anyone and I only hear about it on the internet.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by grioghar on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:35AM (#29634295)
As someone who has lost friends and family to QAnon, I find your statement ignorant and unhelpful. Your anecdotal experience isn’t even remotely reality. I really really wish it was.

Q is fake, but there’s a whole subset of seemingly rational people who are being sucked into the void of this cult.

I mean, look at the subreddit this was posted in.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by mmcgaha on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @03:55AM (#29635421)
The last few years have caused me to be a skeptic. I cannot take anyone at face value any more because the world has become so polarized that it is like people are willing to type anything to make their point stronger. At this point if I do not have intimate knowledge on a subject, and what I do know doesn't match what I am being told, I should be skeptical.

So if you find what I have to say ignorant and unhelpful, so be it. My words are not here for you. If you truly have a life experience with Q then I am sorry to hear that but please understand I cannot blindly accept what you say (As I don't expect you to accept on faith what I say).

So maybe I am in the magic land where the Q never travels, or maybe this whole Q thing is blown out of proportion. I do not know but my ignorant anecdote may make someone else like me ask the same question of why they don't know any Q either.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by orwin on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @05:01AM (#29635786)
> So maybe I am in the magic land where the Q never travels

The follow-up is: what is your sociocultural environment? I'm also in the world Q never travel on my mother's side (all conservative, some could be considered liberal by US standards, but right-leaning at least). The far-right conspiracy don't touch them. They are doctors, CEOs (and retired CEOs), insurance VPs. Amongst the younger generation some are also nurses and physiotherapists, or work in marketing. Not one single conspiracy freak. Some weird claims at the beginning of the pandemic, but since one of them worked in the first national Covid "hotspot" and asked us to limit our travel 5 days before any EU government instaured a lockdown, i think any weird reactance was quashed before it could ever change how we acted.

But amongst my friends who never left my rural hometown? We don't have Q out here but this is the same type of far-right/authoritarian ethos. "We are better than the others, but the others have more money/power/education than us. This can only be because of a conspiracy led by [LGBT lobbies/jews/islamists/atlantists (aka pro-Otan/pro-US)] that we need to fight against, else our kind will die".

Conspiracy theories are not reserved to to working class, it is the whole environment that make them emerge. And i'm not saying they are reserved to the right either (hence the "atlantist" talking point), but that their talking points ethos are usually associated to the far-right. Even if far-left figures used the same (Stalin, Mao).

I started a digression on spinoza but that was only muddying the water, so i'm cutting it here.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by t-writescode on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:57PM (#29634051)
if you read their comment history, you'll see they're a regular on Q stuff, and the subreddit it's on is QanonCasualties, so it's not weird for them to bring up Q at all.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by User23 on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:51AM (#29634398)
I think the point the person you’re replying to was making is that belief that there are believers in a QAnon conspiracy theory is actually itself a conspiracy theory. Through that lens r/QanonCasualties is itself a weirdo conspiracy sub.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by rebuilder on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:00AM (#29634070)
We can’t know, but a cursory glance at the user’s post history shows that this isn’t some fly-by troll. They’ve been pretty consistent for a long time.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by informationally on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:41PM (#29633571)
It's possible to send anonymous tips to reporters. It's not hard. All he's doing with this story is farming fake internet points on Reddit. Getting something off his chest is not changing the systemic causes that made the situation he's currently in. If anything, he's actually exasperating the issue by having chosen to take this to Reddit instead of some trusted media outlet.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by chrsig on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:02PM (#29633703)
They're not obligated to do any of that, you know. And it's ok that they're not.

They didn't frame the post as something that should be bringing about any change. It's literally just a person sharing their story to get a sympathetic ear. Because sometimes humans need that to keep going.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by tsol on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:41PM (#29633965)
This story has be reported many times, the Atlantic has a story about medical professionals leaving the profession recently
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by Jcowell on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:12PM (#29633769)
Why would they want to take it to a media outlet where it has an even greater chance of getting out ? Reddits fits a niche blog like culture that allows the out-letting of emotions. Stuff like this are exactly why blogs even exist in the first place.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by Bud on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:32PM (#29633904)
Actually, we already know he's doing more than "farming fake internet points", don't we? Because the story has now been posted here.

Exacerbating, btw.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by jacquesc on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:04PM (#29633712)
I've read this same story over and over in the trusted media outlets. Here's one of many: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-17/vaccinated-...
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by rektide on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:57PM (#29633673)
I have a different feel that society simply does not condition people to involve themselves in the world. Society has become a teeter-totter of concern, a cycle of advancing to not having to care to suffering the ruin of having forgott4en what was so hard earned. I can only paraphrase the top quote, for I don't remember it nor who said it, but here's some related concerns,

> 'Society's advancement is measured by that which it may take for granted' I forgot! Help! (until it cant/that fails)

> "Every gain made by individuals or societies is almost instantly taken for granted. The luminous ceiling toward which we raise our longing eyes becomes, when we have climbed to the next floor, a stretch of disregarded linoleum beneath our feet." -Aldous Huxley

> "The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats it's most vulnerable members." -Mahatma Ghandi

But this sometimes requires not just aiding them, treating them well, but re-socializing them, re-educating them, informing them, breaking them out of their ignorance & failings.

To simply say that we must

> [re-]"engineer our environments so unhealthy choices are [not] so easy to make"

feels a folly to me. We must socialize. We must foster an aware, awake, able society. Striving to simply prevent all faults is not how we achieve success; it results in a vision of domineering & the absolute & fixedness: it bespeaks a belief that there is one true path for society & that we need only set it out & all will walk this course. It's singular utopian, a singular destiny, not a polytopia, not letting us many people discover & hunt for our own ends. Imo society must remain a dialectic, a conversation, a hunt. We must encourage growth & awareness & hunts for meaning, without insisting on a systematic & singular top choice.

I don't think social media is a part of this question:

> "Everyone believes whatever they want to,"

is a false Boogeyman, a false god, a Fear Uncertainty & Doubt (FUD), meant to scare us. We have to allow plurality, we have to allow polytopianism, we have to allow many systems, many beliefs. But we can still in aggregate steer towards informed, towards good beliefs, towards healthy ends. Trying to demonize the availability of voices & options- "safetly cocooned in their own social media echo chambers"- just misses the real point: that society doesn't have a progressive vision at large, that basically no one has a real bead on a healthy, progressive, gainful society. Everything is beset by conflict, and we are trying to make choices with very biased, limited, local regards. And there are very few clear paths, very few regardable winners.

For sure, much of what presented in the world is faulty & awful. But this too feels like a part of evolution. Simply wishing for authoritarianism, for everyone to make the right choices, for everyone to accept good dogma in the place of bad dogma: it's a disaster. And I don't think "Everyone believes whatever they want to", I think they have complex experiences which shape what they are most susceptible to, and I think most of us lack good positive role models & experiences to shape us properly forward. The world does not reward the just & righteous, it doesn't promote the healthy: it showcases greed & taking & exploitation, it showcases narcisim & delusion. It shows us an all too recent history of medical abuse & experimentation of our minorities. These aren't social media problems, these are the actual world: the actual evidence of the actual world is unclear, is deeply shadowy, is ghastly.

"The longer this state of affairs persists the worse things will get". Such appeal to authority & Fear. Such terror!!! "Inability to deal with a pandemic is just the tip of the iceberg" it itself a promise of horror & terror, it insists on & demands we obey or conform, & demands that anything else we do, any other permissiveness we permit only Immenatizes the Eschaton. To me, this high capitol fear uncertainty & doubt is the chief Immenatizing of the Eschaton there is. I don't like what people pick. I think people are incredibly stupid & full of shit. But I don't see that conformity & authority are the reagents here, I don't see that a more structured society that informs what decisions we must make will help. I believe society from the top needs to demonstrate better health, needs to make better choices easier to pick, needs to make better icons & references we can respect, that will inform what choices we freely make. Right now society simply lacks meaning. That social media is out there making it complicated is merely incidental, a scape goat, a convenient anti-authority to blame this all upon, but authority itself is shit, useless, cowards, good for nothing, and no one respects it, rightfully. Make a social contract worth believing in, society.

Arden authoritarianism is far worse than the too many choices of the very very young ur-connected world we have recently arrived at. We do need to surface & democratize better choice-making, create better supporting info-networks & options of choice. But recognize first that the 4th age information society is very young, and that simply wishing to stuff it back in the bottle/box, blaming it, & being upset we don't do better is not going to help. And recognize that there are so many 1st 2nd & 3rd age society problems still dogging us, still making things enormously difficult, and recognize that those need remedy & addressal to before society can ever really right itself & find progress. Fearing pop-culture society, it's superficial glam, is a misdeed: what is really weak is society itself, is the unhelpful, unprogressive, un-gainful world that has failed to create better circumstances. I don't blame the people. I don't think we must outmanuever people, to make unhealthy choices impossible/harder. To me, it's less about trying to fight against the baleful/evil, and more about creating the construtive/positive. Social media will spread the good too, will snuff out the darkness, if we have it, if there's the sunlight to spread.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by irq on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:21PM (#29633828)
A lot of what you wrote here resonates with me. But all of it takes a lot of time to pull off. With COVID, we don’t have that much time.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by BLKNSLVR on Monday December 20, 2021 @10:59PM (#29633693)
> The real question is why have we engineered our environment so unhealthy choices are so easy to make.

The combination of freedom, capitalism, and greed. This is why I can't be entirely sure that China's approach isn't potentially longer term sustainable, as much as I disagree with it - it might actually be a better way to deal with the stubborn-ness of stupidity that's so inherent to humanity (to be fair, all these traits must have served us well when Pringles and Pop Tarts weren't cheap and easily available).

Cigarettes. How did they become a thing? What, ever, was their redeeming feature? At least Pringles and Pop Tarts taste nice.

Social media is just a more-efficient distillation of what traditional media has profited from since it began. It's not new human-hacking, it's just an efficiency bump that's actually more facilitated by the internet and pocket-portable devices with access to it.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by nradov on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:08AM (#29634115)
While cigarettes are overall quite harmful, the nicotine they contain does have certain cognitive benefits.

https://peterattiamd.com/ama23/

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by WalterBright on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:39PM (#29633951)
> The combination of freedom, capitalism, and greed.

Really? Last I heard, life expectancy in the USSR was quite a bit worse.

> Cigarettes. How did they become a thing?

Nicotine. Not hard at all to understand. Personally, I've always liked the smell of cigarettes. I never smoked, because I knew I'd really like it. Cigars, though, make me want to puke.

> deal with the stubborn-ness of stupidity that's so inherent to humanity

Most evil in the world is not perpetrated by evil people, but by good people believing they know what's best for everyone else, and forcing it on them.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by BLKNSLVR on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @01:07AM (#29634484)
Life expectancy wasn't the topic, the topic was "engineered our environment so unhealthy choices are so easy to make." and I stand by my answer. No specific judgement either, just cause and effect.

> believing they know what's best for everyone else, and forcing it on them.

Agree, to an extent. Forcing things on people is required of a functioning society. Government and laws and whatnot.

I genuinely don't know where the lines should be drawn on the entire spectrum. Law of unintended consequences and all that.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by WalterBright on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @02:44AM (#29634997)
> Forcing things on people is required of a functioning society.

The government's proper role is to prevent people from using force on each other. It is not forcing things that the government imagines are good for people on them.

For example, I believed for decades the advice from the government that margarine was better for me than eggs. That turned out to be backwards.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by BLKNSLVR on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @02:56AM (#29635048)
> The government's proper role is to prevent people from using force on each other. It is not forcing things that the government imagines are good for people on them.

I don't think you can necessarily separate those two things from one another so simply, except in the most extreme of examples.

> For example, I believed for decades the advice from the government that margarine was better for me than eggs. That turned out to be backwards.

I'm just going to assume you chose a bad example here. There's no force at play, you're free to choose your thing, you can even have both at the same time. Freedom!

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by WalterBright on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @04:52AM (#29635745)
1. there are always gray areas, that doesn't invalidate the principle

2. not a bad example - what if the government forced me to use margarine instead, secure it its rectitude? That's the point.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by Turing_Machine on Monday December 20, 2021 @11:51PM (#29634022)
> Nicotine. Not hard at all to understand.

Also monoamine oxidase inhibitors, a class of compounds that are effective against depression, panic disorder, and social phobia.

Some think that the absence of the MAO inhibitors are why nicotine replacement therapies (gum, patches) aren't really all that great at getting people to stop smoking.

Re:My career of treating patients has ended by adrianN on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @12:18AM (#29634175)
Was life expectancy in eastern block states worse if you correct for wealth? They had pretty good doctors as far as I know.
Re:My career of treating patients has ended by WalterBright on Tuesday December 21, 2021 @02:38AM (#29634966)
> Was life expectancy in eastern block states worse if you correct for wealth?

I don't know. But I do know that people were much worse off economically in the USSR than in the US. This impacts longevity.

> They had pretty good doctors as far as I know.

I recall reading in a thread on Chernobyl where people who lived there at the time of the disaster were commenting. One comment stood out - root canals were free, but there was no anesthetic available. Having had a root canal myself, I can't imagine sitting in that chair for several hours getting drilled without anesthetic.