US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible whilst simultaneously threatening every single citizen with, essentially, removal from society, if they speak against the chosen narrative.

No country is innocent, some are, however, free (moreso, at least, enough to matter, enough to choose if the need arises).

> US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible

In some ways, I think this can actually serve to make people believe that real events were fictional - after all, movies are generally fictional or at least with a good dose of artistic license.

I also must point out that some western governments will go to extreme lengths to bury bad actions as deeply as possible - if it wasn't for leakers, there are a whole host of Western war crimes and atrocities that would never have surfaced to the public. Even when they do, government and media propaganda machines are very efficient at convincing the general populace there is nothing to see here.

We like to berate China and others for bad actions (rightly so), but in many respects Western governments are appalling hypocrites.

One "feature" of democracy is that it doesn't matter whether people speak out against something. You just need 51% of people to agree with you, which can come from manufactured consent, and you can accomplish all the evil deeds you want all the same. If you try to do anything thar actually threatens the government's operations, you're treasonous and can be punished accordingly.

I have yet to see a feature-length film depicting Trump the way, e.g. Oliver Stone's "W" or Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" depicted Bush. Trump's crimes are buried in a mountain of...other crimes, and the atmosphere is so thick with bullshit that investigating facts is to tempt a firehouse of political hate of epic proportions. I think certain topics are virtually suicide these days.

I think that's just a case of not enough time having passed. There's probably so much material to sift through.

Those movies are more often than not glorifying such embarrassments, which make them propaganda.

As an analogy for China & the US, you can say one of them is Orwellian while the other is Huxleyan. They're both oppressive, but it's about time to stop pretending only coercion is bad; propaganda is everywhere in american media and it's the same tactic used by autocracies in the 40s: spin everything you do as "us vs them they evil" and dehumanize anything your foes do as "they evil not free genocide". People who say there's a genocide in China with 0 Uygur deaths are the same to dismiss the Iraq war with millions dead; calling it what it was, a genocide, will never even pass by their brains. Double standards.

Two that come to mind are The Big Short and The Trial of the Chicago Seven.

Two movies in a rich fabric that give me no confidence in the reality of consequences of bad behaviour that my parents drilled into me since I was born.

Both movies give me the impression that no lessons have been learned by either experience.

Indeed. If I recall correctly, movies which use US Military equipment are often required to work with/be reviewed by the Pentagon:

[0] https://www.defense.gov/News/Inside-DOD/Blog/article/2062735...

[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-aug-21-la-ca-mi...

AFAIK there's no requirement to work with the DoD, but if you want DoD consultants they want a say in the movie.

First, now sure I follow how Orwell glorifies these embarrassments, because I think it's the exact opposite.

Second, the USA/EU is not perfectly innocent wrt to propaganda, but still... it could be much worse.

Subjective comparisons are really useless on a debate eg. "I think USA/EU are bad but China is worse" while someone else will say exactly the opposite. You'll then say "he's blinded by propaganda" and the other side will say the same. If the debate is in a western website, you win, if it's in China, they win. That's a flamewar shitshow, not a debate.

The Orwell/Huxley comparison wrt the way China/America respectively enforce their narrative. China is through crackdown of dissent, coercion, while the US is through propaganda that paints everything America does as righteous, inherently good, altruist, selfless... You only have to look at the output of Hollywood or modern videogames to see such an obvious fact.

Of course, if you're the target of state propaganda, it'll be hard to decouple what you've been fed your whole life as truth from geopolitical interests. Being an outsider I can see the bullshit in both governments, but the one I'm worried about is the one which has been belligerent since I was born and much before that.

Yeah, I mean you're basically saying if someone is so inclined they can approach any question from a perspective of bad faith, and never recognize any merit to a theoretically valid argument. I don't think that problem in general can be solved, even if we eliminated propaganda or otherwise. No one can make anyone agree with someone, even if they're right.

That being said, I can still ask questions and say what I think and see what happens. I'm legitimately open to being wrong, in fact I'd love to be.

Also, I'll just add this briefly, I didn't say anything about China. I just said it could be much worse. That could come from my own people (I'm from the USA).

I believe discourse/debate on the internet are broken. I'll go as far as saying internet forums have failed because they're still text-only, moderation is still upvote/downvote-only and people are not obligated to add citations for what they claim. We're left with finding forums where people are more rational and less biased, which is why I frequent HN.

Still, the problem can be alleviated imo if we level up the way internet forums work.

You and me are doing it right now! Respect and setting a good example at the end of the day I think succeed. I can't prove it, but I take it as a matter of faith I suppose.

O and yeah, you're right, these kinds of issues aren't so much of a problem face to face. Our emotions are like little ASICs that just kind of grease the wheels of social friction. Evolutions... crazy.

There is no way you can truthfully say that the US went to Iraq to murder an ethnicity. Flagged.

I'm still waiting for the incontestable proof China is trying to get rid of Uygurs. No, a known anti-China source such as Adrian Zenz being propped up by adversaries of China does not count. If you have the slightest understanding of discourse, you already know this: you don't get a biased source to report on the subject they're biased about.

It seems unreasonable to require that all bad information about China come from previously neutral sources. Is Zenz an anti-China source because he's "biased", or because he's reached a reasonable evidence-based conclusion that the Chinese government is very bad?

If you are not in the US, and you are not in Europe (this article is blocked there) which continent are you on?

AFAIK there was (still is) huge public backlash after it became apparent that there were no WMDs in Iraq. Ofc you can argue that this reaction was too late and maybe even insincere (since public support was very high in the beginning of the war).

> people who say there's a genocide in China with 0 Uygur deaths

Whoa, some paid CCP propaganda there. How about this: Allow international human rights groups and Western media access to the Uygurh areas? Allow the topic to be discussed openly on the Chinese internet?

Until the CCP does that, it's better advised to just suppress the story. Like it's doing now.

Not at all the same problem, since those people do not control the government.

That seems like a very, very, broad brush.

Sadly not - remember, the US with the UK's complicity is going to let Julian Assange rot in prison probably for the rest of his life. For engaging in an act of journalism which in all likelihood ended the Iraq war, or at least made a substantial contribution to doing so.

It's the same type of problem, but much more limited in extent.

Every country has it to some degree, authoritarian regimes typically go crazy with nationalism since it's the most powerful tool they have to force their victims on the side of the aggressors against the evil foreigners.

Hey, let me see if I can play this game!

We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Equity loving" sects applaud disregarding national boarders, easy release of multiple time offenders, shouting down those who disagree, and the death of any vaccine protester.