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Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by wruza on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:25AM (#29507685)
Others say that feelings is everything and there is no point in going any further.
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by atoav on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:41AM (#29508145)
As long as you have enough rational engineers, scientists and bureaucrats around you, you could indeed afford that luxury. But don't ever become naive enough to extrapolate yourself onto the rest of the world and call it a paradise.
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by wruza on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:09AM (#29508285)
I’m not in the feelings camp either. But these others have a point, I think. Full-rational world for what?
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by atoav on Friday December 10, 2021 @05:52AM (#29508479)
I don't say we need a full rational world. What we need however is a world that is not anti-rational to the point where it destructs the planet.

Also the most hardcore rational science people will do things based on feeling in their everyday lives. If you feel like drinking 5 beers on a Wednesday, that might not be the most rational thing to do, but knock yourself out. Where we as a society however need to be rational, is when it comes to the fate of populations (e.g. during a pandemic) or the entire planet (e.g. climate change).

The need for rationality changes with the scale of the problem and whether we are dealing with individual topics or collective ones.

Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by KronisLV on Friday December 10, 2021 @08:51AM (#29509800)
> What we need however is a world that is not anti-rational to the point where it destructs the planet.

If we really needed it like we need air, more action would be taken to move towards better circumstances.

I'd argue that it's not "really needed" for most people - almost no one alive today will experience the worst possible outcomes of climate change. Many of those who disregard epidemiological safety also won't experience the worst personal outcomes for themselves. Thus, they're free to disregard these, or even oppose them entirely, regardless of how far their arguments or feelings are detached from what would be best for the next generations and probably even believe that they're right in doing so.

People's ability to ignore anything that they don't like is easy to overlook.

I do agree with the actual point that you're making, though. We need more rationality in life.

Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by wruza on Friday December 10, 2021 @11:37AM (#29511881)
"We" is such a blanket word. I believe (correct me) that you're actually saing "they need more rationality in their life", because you, me and atoav are hopefully already rational and try to "save the planet from destruction" for some unclear reason, as if we were immortal or somehow responsible for it. The thing is, they are not we and, as you already noted, they may have completely different values (like feelings), which we ought to respect as well. For example, you can't tell a kid to stay calm and watch their youth slip through their fingers while the pandemic goes on.
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by KronisLV on Friday December 10, 2021 @01:09PM (#29513302)
I agree that the people who can see the ongoing shortcomings in how people act should be able to try and do better, as well as use whatever legislative powers that they have to ensure the best outcomes, even if that's just voting, or making sure that health/safety norms etc. are followed.

Yet, at the same time, we're all just human and it's easy to have similar shortcomings ourselves, because if we spent all of our days worrying about every minuscule thing, we'd never get anything done (of course, that doesn't excuse the behavior, i'm merely pointing out this human cognitive limitation).

For example, i got some cheap running shoes for running in the evenings in my countryside home. The only factor that mattered to me when i got them, was that they'd be cheap enough for me to be able to throw them away once they get worn. Of course, the price point essentially meant that i'm probably supporting businesses in countries where the working conditions are oftentimes very poor, as well as ones where the human rights situation has problems in some cases. I don't doubt that the way my phone was made was all that different, nor were the circumstances surrounding it. Similarly, i support unethical corporations whenever i pick up a box of cereal at the store, or when i buy a cocoa drink that i want to enjoy. I'm also contributing to the furthering of unsustainable farming practices almost whenever i buy meat at the store, as opposed to sourcing it locally (e.g. smaller farms or hunting).

Of course, the impact of many of those is lower than the aforementioned things, yet the principle of the human mind being fallible is the same. So i think we should all remain self critical and watch out for things like that when we can.

Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by jeofken on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:34AM (#29507740)
You may call it sophiststry rather than philosophy
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by dandanua on Friday December 10, 2021 @04:42AM (#29508155)
Not really, this is an egocentric philosophy (like solipsism) and you can't fight it with rational arguments.
Re:Facts don’t change our minds (2018) by mdp2021 on Friday December 10, 2021 @03:36AM (#29507751)
Good luck in building an aqueduct.