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Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by charcircuit on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:05PM (#29466928)
They don't prohibit it outright. They just require you to ask first. The article made no mention of if they asked or not.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by jchw on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:15PM (#29467012)
I feel like that's splitting hairs. if you say something is "prohibited without express written permission," to me that reads as "prohibited." Especially when it comes to benchmarking, because it effectively means that you can never do an impartial benchmark of the service.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by onion2k on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:07AM (#29469790)
to me that reads as "prohibited."

That's because you don't have a good enough reason to want to ask for permission though. If you were spending $xx thousands on edge workers every year you'd just ask, and you'd rule CF out if they said no. But, very likely, they'd say yes.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by cryptonym on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @02:25AM (#29469882)
You have to ask for a written exemption that may or may not be granted. With enough money you can discuss any ToS.

That's a fake opening with the same effect as prohibiting something by ToS.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by InGoodFaith on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:19PM (#29467045)
Asking before benchmarking seems to be a sure way to poison your results.

Who's to say that the performance of the services won't coincidentally perform better after you've given your request to test?

I am sure they might mention some legalese of "avoiding putting arduous strain on the services which may cause disruption to our other users" as a justification, but that PR speak won't fly with me since there is a separate section that already references that.

I say this as a big fan of Cloudflare and I am sure they don't need to use such underhanded tactics to make their services look good.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by girvo on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:14PM (#29467007)
> They don't prohibit it outright. They just require you to ask first

Frankly, that's a distinction without a difference in this context, at least in my opinion.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by Dylan16807 on Monday December 06, 2021 @09:58PM (#29468688)
"If you get permission to bypass this, you can bypass it" is implicitly part of all agreements. So explicitly including that doesn't change it. It's the same as an outright prohibition.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by judge2020 on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:46PM (#29467339)
In contrast to the other comments, this is a valid concern regarding whether or not they asked first. I assume legal cleared this blog post, which would likely infer that legal either (A) got permission to publish benchmarks, or (B) doesn't think that part of the TOS is enforceable/doesn't expect CF to actually do anything about it.

The TOS clause, for reference: https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/#:~:text=(f)%20perform%20or... (ctrl-f benchmark )

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by kailanb on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:55PM (#29467423)
To clarify, Fastly did not perform any benchmarks on Cloudflare's network. We ran our own benchmark, comparable to the one that Cloudflare ran on our platform, and compared those results to the ones that Cloudflare published as part of the original blog post.

The Cloudflare terms prohibit benchmarking without their explicit permission.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by dsizzle on Monday December 06, 2021 @07:52PM (#29467876)
> To clarify, Fastly did not perform any benchmarks on Cloudflare's network. We ran our own benchmark…

Am I the only having cognitive dissonance here? I was confused how they complained about not being able to perform benchmarks but then… ran a benchmark? There must be some distinction here that I’m missing

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by kyralis on Monday December 06, 2021 @08:06PM (#29467971)
Fastly is unable to reproduce the benchmark against Cloudflare. They reproduced a modified (and theoretically improved) benchmark against their own service, but then had to compare it to the original values provided by Cloudflare.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by IanAWP on Monday December 06, 2021 @08:11PM (#29468011)
CloudFlare ran a benchmark on both services and published their results. The contention is that the benchmark did not represent fastly performance fairly, so fastly reran the benchmark in what they consider to be a fair way, on their service only. They did not retest CloudFlare in their benchmark. The results in the post compare CloudFlare's results for CloudFlare and fastly's results for fastly
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by dsizzle on Monday December 06, 2021 @08:26PM (#29468114)
Yeah, ok that must be the distinction.

However, I see that the TOS says you may not "perform or publish" benchmarks. Seems this still violates the "or publish" part, even if Fastly avoided doing the performing. What would be the point of forbidding publishing if it is already forbidden to perform said benchmarks in the first place? The TOS seems to also forbid publishing on the benchmark even when someone else performs the Fastly part of the benchmark.

Edit: It must be the TOS doesn't apply if you don't use the service.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by LamaOfRuin on Monday December 06, 2021 @09:06PM (#29468371)
Fortunately, no one needed to agree to the CloudFlare ToS to read their blog post.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by dsizzle on Monday December 06, 2021 @09:55PM (#29468676)
Haha. Actually, now that I think about it, I guess the TOS doesn't apply if you don't use the service!
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by kailanb on Monday December 06, 2021 @07:58PM (#29467914)
Sorry, I was trying to clarify in my comment but failed to put it through clearly. When I say "We ran our own benchmark" I mean Fastly ran a benchmark on a Fastly Compute@Edge service.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by ethbr0 on Monday December 06, 2021 @07:38PM (#29467756)
Notably, the self-service and enterprise TOS differ a bit here.

From "Cloudflare Self-Serve Subscription Agreement" https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/ , "2.2 Restrictions. Unless otherwise expressly permitted in writing by Cloudflare, you will not and you have no right to: [...] (f) perform or publish any benchmark tests or analyses relating to the Services without Cloudflare’s written consent;"

From "ENTERPRISE SUBSCRIPTION TERMS OF SERVICE" https://www.cloudflare.com/enterpriseterms/ , "2.3. Restrictions and Acceptable Use. Customer must not: [...] (i) perform or publish any performance or benchmark tests or analyses relating to the Service, other than solely for Customer’s internal use;"

Generally, it sounds like the kind of thing that would be obvious to a lawyer (we want to prohibit random people badmouth our product, right?) but stupid to engineers.

The best outcome would be if Fastly and Cloudflare both dropped any language limiting benchmarking and sharing of results.

If they want to protect their brands, the most common sense requirement would be "We require you to tell us, within X hours after publishing, of benchmarks you're publishing and send us a copy of the article in which you published them (or link if publicly accessible)."

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by InGoodFaith on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:55PM (#29467415)
They stated in the blogpost that they only performed the benchmarks against their own services

> So instead, we ran the same tests (echoing headers and measuring TTFB via Catchpoint) against our own platform

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by barkingcat on Monday December 06, 2021 @08:23PM (#29468088)
In a totally different scenario - if someone requires you to ask before undergoing a drug test, for example, if an Olympic athlete made drug testing conditional upon having notice, it wouldn't be a real test.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by robertlagrant on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @04:06AM (#29470431)
It's not quite the same. Cloudflare aren't going to rejig their global service every time someone wants to benchmark their code.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by austhrow743 on Monday December 06, 2021 @10:15PM (#29468746)
Every prohibited thing is not prohibited if you get an exception. Nothing is prohibited huzzah!
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by deadmutex on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:12PM (#29466976)
Why tho?
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by hysan on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:16PM (#29467016)
Probably for the same reason that I've seen processes put in place for performance testing a service (internally or on production) - because it puts a significant load on the service and automatic rate limiting, flagging, etc can be triggered.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by dekhn on Monday December 06, 2021 @06:24PM (#29467099)
if you benchmark your competitor, your competitor should have the ability to provide tuning so their numbers look as good as possible, before you run to the press.
Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by deadmutex on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @01:33AM (#29469614)
Unless your competitor was offering a complimentary service to do that for all customers (tuning) then perhaps it shouldn't be done. I believe the idea of benchmarking is to get a sense of how the service would perform for a customer.

Consider the following scenario: You calling your ISP that you're going to do a benchmark. Then the ISP gives you the best service, at the expense of other customers bandwidth, for the duration of the test. Then after the test, the ISP removes the QoS modification, and reverts to the old behavior. That could end up with a biased, unrealistic result.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by dekhn on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @10:21AM (#29473348)
No, benchmarking aims to identify the peak performance of a service, not the average customer experience. Real Benchmarking is done for people who are serious about performance. marketing benchmarking is designed to attract naive customers.

As for the latter, that benchmark wouldn't reproduce and would require extensive configuration (which in a sense is just a part of negotiation between the customer and the client). If a company got caught faking benchmarks run by competitors and it could be shown publicly they did, that's pretty much the end of that company's public reputation.

Re:Debunking Cloudflare’s recent performance tests by int_19h on Monday December 06, 2021 @08:02PM (#29467939)