Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by makomk on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:08PM (#29421757)

Vaccination does reduce the proportion of people that need ICU beds, but there are pretty rapid diminishing returns on just vaccinating more; countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination. Also, vaccinating younger lower-risk people doesn't help because they're at substantially lower risk of needing the ICU even unvaccinated than someone older or higher-risk who is vaccinated and because the vaccines aren't really useful to stop the spread of the disease either. Countries have generally had significantly higher vaccine acceptance amongst older people who need it more. (Though I think one of the big problems Germany has is their vaccine uptake amongst the elderly is somewhat low compared to other countries.)

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by smnrchrds on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:36PM (#29422139)

Right now in my province, unvaccinated individuals make up 11.2% of 12+ population but more than 66% of hospitalizations. I don't expect the ICU rates to be more favourable to the unvaccianted than total hospitalization rates. If there is a point of rapid diminishing returns, it is not at ~90% yet.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm...

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by swader999 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:13PM (#29424255)

Your missing the vaccine injured in those stats because they define unvaccinated as anyone less than two weeks after vaccinated.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by smnrchrds on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:20PM (#29424352)

What do you mean? The immunity doesn't kick in the second the vaccine is injected into your arm. How else should they count vaccinated vs unvaccinated? (Also note that there is a category of partially vaccinated in the stats that is people who have only received the first dose of a two-dose vaccine).

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by skjoldr on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:31AM (#29428854)

These stats do not show the difference between taking a shot but still being infected within two weeks after it, and not taking any shots at all and being infected. If you're going to blame the second group for filling up ICUs, you cannot lump them together.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by swader999 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:00PM (#29424783)

It means the stats aren't as useful.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by dukeofdoom on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:22PM (#29424986)

Its probably just time delayed. Give it a few months. The vaccine protection seems to wear off rather quickly, based on data from UK and Israel.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by lamontcg on Friday December 03, 2021 @04:30PM (#29435802)

Protection from hospitalization and death, particularly in under-65 or so, does not wear off. Neutralizing antibody levels naturally wane and can allow infection, T-cell and B-cell populations don't (unless you get infected with measles or have some other conditions, and assuming you form a robust T-cell response to begin with and aren't immunocompromised or just quite old).

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by dukeofdoom on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:48PM (#29437109)

I think the vaccine is probably as effective as two doses of a laxative. Any 75+ year olds that survived the two doses of the laxative, will now have better outcomes against covid.

Keep in mind the effectiveness is measured in tens/100,000. An there are some very sick people given the vaccine, that die before the 14 days of the second dose.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by lamontcg on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:02PM (#29455378)

> I think the vaccine is probably as effective as two doses of a laxative.

Well at least people know how much weight to give your opinions.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by dukeofdoom on Monday December 06, 2021 @03:53PM (#29465555)

My views are based on science

https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinNeil9/status/14668143477626...

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by pigeonhole123 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:26PM (#29423651)

Are they hospitalized for Covid or all reasons?

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by smnrchrds on Thursday December 02, 2021 @05:28PM (#29423682)

These are only COVID stats.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by nodemaker on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:14AM (#29427162)

Correlation does not imply causation.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by Pyramus on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:30PM (#29422916)

> countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination.

Which countries are you talking about? It's certainly not the case for Germany, and I don't know any other European country for which this would be the case.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by cm2187 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:24PM (#29425009)

You make a good point re vaccinating lower risk patients. In the UK, not only the population has a high vaccination rate, but the rate is particularly high among the population at risk (~95% for the >70yo [1]). As a result, hospital cases and deaths are a fraction of the Jan 2021 peak, even though infection levels are high.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by microtherion on Thursday December 02, 2021 @03:30PM (#29422073)

> countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination

Which countries? I find it hard to get data at vaccination prevalence in ICU population specifically, but in Switzerland, the figures I see cited is 60-70% of patients unvaccinated (With 90% of 80%+ year olds in the population being double vaccinated).

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by kgwgk on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:06PM (#29422578)

> in Switzerland, the figures I see cited is 60-70% of patients unvaccinated (With 90% of 80%+ year olds in the population being double vaccinated)

For the 80+ group the latest data for hospitalisations is 47% vaccinated, 31% non-vaccinated, 22% unkown.

https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/vaccination/status

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by martneumann on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:27PM (#29422866)

Well yeah, for 80+ with a vaccination rate of 92 %.

If you look at the total value, it appears that only 11 % of hospitalized are double vaccinated, though the latest seven day average puts that number at 27 %.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by kgwgk on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:28PM (#29422890)

I was just giving a number consistent with the 80+ vaccination rate quoted.

For the broad population is 28% vaccinated vs 57% non-vaccinated. The remaining 15% is "unknown". But Switzerland has a relatively low vaccination rate at 67%.

Edit: looking at deaths instead of hospitalisations in the broad population:

  Fully-vaccinated 46%, partially-vaccinated 2%
  Non-vaccinated 41%
  Unknown 12%

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by microtherion on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:34PM (#29422989)

Yes, those are the numbers for _hospitalizations_ in general, but the higher percentages I've been seeing (and for which I've been unsuccessful finding official documentation) are for _ICU_ patients specifically.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by kgwgk on Thursday December 02, 2021 @04:36PM (#29423002)

But they were not for 80+ patients specifically, or were they?

Edit: I can't find ICU numbers but the latest death stats for 80+ are 46% vaccinated, 33% non-vaccinated, 21% unknown.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by stormking on Thursday December 02, 2021 @06:32PM (#29424496)

Right now, young people take the "booster shots" that should be given to the elderly, first. Politicians will be very proud that "XY percent of the population are already boostered". The dying will continue.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by kelnos on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:21PM (#29425478)

I dropped in to a local clinic this week to get my booster (no appointment, even) and was given the shot in about 15 minutes. Most of the other people there waiting looked relatively young. Seems that we're doing a terrible job of reaching out to the elderly to get them their boosters. Or they just don't want it.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by stormking on Friday December 03, 2021 @03:55AM (#29427998)

Yes, and this is another example of the really bad management skills of our government. If you announce the wrong KPIs (XY percent vaccination regardless of personal risks) you might be performing great according to them and still fail miserably on your actual goals.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by m4rtink on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:56PM (#29425268)

Which country is that ? Here in Czech Republic there is clear priority for 60+ years for the third doses. Also a big vaccination drive based on volunteers to vaccinate ideally up to a milion eligible people with the third dose till Christmas.

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Re:Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan t... by SonicTheSith on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:16AM (#29428755)

Here in Berlin for example, in the first week of september my 85 year old grandparents received a booster shot invite letter from the Berlin senate. It said something like starting 20th september you can get the 3rd shot from any doctor or you can go without an appointment to a vaccination centre across the city.

what did they do? nothing because case numbers were low, I did push and push to finally get my grandpa to get is 3rd shot mid november while go to the doctor for something else... by coincident the rush to get the booster started 1 day after that.

I bet this happened a lot.... As far as I know just like for the 1st shot sverybody above 70 got that same letter. Meaning they had more than 2 months head start to get the boostershot.

So at least in Berlin I wont have sympathy anymore for taking away the shot from somebody else (got my appointment in january)

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