Having lived in Beijing and Shenzhen for almost 7 years, I find that where I have first hand experience his reporting is pretty accurate.

Would you mind to elaborate why you consider it bottom of the gutter grifting? Genuinely curious to hear another perspective.

Or reasons for saying this?

Ok, do you have any recommendations for uh, China analysis YouTubers?

When weighing pphysch's media recommendations, consider that they apparently believe that applying Occam's Razor leads to the conclusion that "Washington media is blowing literally any scandal out of proportion in a propaganda blitz aimed at tarnishing Beijing 2022." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344160

Eh, I don’t really care which username recommends things on the internet, I care about finding more sources to expand my understanding.

pphysch’s sources could very well be garbage, but I can decide that for myself.

It is truly bizarre to me that someone who is taking a very pro-CCP stance will justify this with reference to propaganda that other nations create...it is really something. Every nation creates propaganda, every nation does not have media controlled by the state, every nation does not have massive propaganda departments that are present at all levels of society...they aren't equivalent, the only reason to draw the equivalence is because you understand that something is wrong but (for whatever reason) have to justify that to yourself by claiming everyone else is just as bad.

It is like the Communist criticism of democracy: oh, elections are all rigged by wealthy people anyway...said from a country with no elections and a one-party state. Ofc.

It is truly bizarre when people trick themselves into the paradox of "I don't trust Government 1 but I trust everything they or their crony media says about Government 2"

Something funny and illustrative about the PRC for me was getting into shortwave radio. Let me explain. Sometimes certain people will tell you that the CCP isn't so censorious, that it's all Western hyperbole and propaganda, that most other governments are equivalent. But then you spin your dial through the shortwave broadcast bands and, no exaggeration, every 6 broadcasts or so will be the CCP jamming another broadcast from Taiwan, the US, the UK or elsewhere. No other country on Earth, apart from NK and occasionally Cuba, treats its people with such contempt. And all this energy, literal and figurative, just for shortwave radio.

Just to play devil's advocate on that one, but maybe the Chinese understand the power of propaganda better than anyone and they don't want western propaganda disrupting their society?

What precisely does that entail? I could say that and then prevent you from hearing anything from the outside world, just keep you locked in a cellar. It's for your own good, I understand how the propaganda might affect your delicate mind.

"America built a border wall preventing their people from escaping. Look how much contempt they have!"

"America banned citizens from owning heavy weaponry. Look how much contempt they have!"

"American banned citizens from smoking meth! Look how much contempt they have!"

Ridiculous.

Again, the doublethink is amazing.

My point is precisely that people in democracies are not forced to trust the govt. They don't have to trust the media, they are totally free. The only context in which your logic makes sense is one in which you believe the govt controls truth. You are living in a mental prison that you created.

Where is the "doublethink" in pointing out the paradox in distrusting your government yet trusting everything they say about a foreign government?

You do realize that "trusted" "unbiased" media outlets like the Reuters, AP, NYT, WaPo literally have State Department/Pentagon censors filtering any material that could be deemed sensitive to "national security"?

I am baffled how this makes sense to you.

You are complaining about the State Department censoring news but imply that the CCP which literally controls all information isn't as bad? Again, you realise that the US being as bad as China doesn't make China good?

And, again, the doublethink is being unable to understand that the question of whether you have to trust government makes no sense in the US. You don't have to trust the govt, that is freedom. Indeed, the US govt is constructed on the principle of multiple sources of power so it doesn't even make sense to say that authority arises from one source, there are competing sources of power (ironically, this is what the CCP finds incomprehensible about the US). The US govt does not censor the internet, most of the news sources you cite are not "trusted", people are sceptical of the media, people are sceptical of the govt. The point I am making is that people are unable to sceptical in China because they have no choice, the question you are posing makes no sense in a US context.

Both Chinese and Americans are more or less equally propagandized, the difference is that the Americans don't know it.

In China you know that whatever is getting media traction has been de facto approved by the Party. In America you have virtually no idea which special interest group is currently lying to you through the media, and they will never be held accountable.

> Both Chinese and Americans are more or less equally propagandized

This implies that the US government has total control over all domestic news outlets, a great firewall that censors the national internet and helps to find and remove references to embarrassing government incidents, policy that requires all companies to hand over all user data to the state unencrypted without a warrant, and a social credit system that can prevent you from getting a job if you make negative comments about the government's policies.

I very much would like to see proof of these things, given that I can do internet searches for atrocities like the Tuskegee Experiment, I've never gotten in any sort of trouble for making negative comments about the government, and I can find many news sources that run extremely conspiratorial articles about the same.

> This implies...

No, it doesn't. Americans are more or less equally propagandized, but in different (and less transparent) ways.

...which you've provided exactly zero evidence for. Please provide concrete evidence of propaganda that's equal in magnitude to the things described above.

Otherwise, yes, it rather does imply, because there are very few things similar to the CCP's social credit system that have the same effect, and even fewer that could be deployed in the US without immediately being noticed.

American trust in media is 36%. I can assure you the vast majority of Americans are extremely skeptical of what they consume.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/355526/americans-trust-media-di...

Digging to China YT channel. Amazing coverage, objective and very sound.

Sure. What topics/sectors are you interested in?

Asking this question pretty much reveals what you’re going to recommend. Obviously, I’m looking for opinions about: “CCP good, or CCP bad?”

I don't follow. What was I going to recommend?

“CCP good”

I don't get it. So it was a disingenuous request?

Cyrus Janssen, Daniel Dumbrill, Geopolitics In Conflict, Carl Zha, Brian Berletic.

This has to be satire. Anyone looking to be informed about China would be better served by reading the Axios Sinocism newsletter.

I don't believe that Axios is a better source.

Maybe let people check both out and decide for themselves.

Have you even read Sinocism? Your recommendations are very, very low quality.

Sinocism is the approximately the same level of quality as Jansen, Dumbrill, etc. That it caters to a particular crowd of liberal "China watchers", which you may be party to, does not make it higher quality.

Axios is also known for producing outright disinformation on China via zealots like Allen-Ebrahimian.

This is laughable. Do you post to r/sino?

What is that?

It is a radically nationalist pro-China forum to the point where they regularly push anti-US conspiracy theories and regular usage of words like "Amerikkka".

>It is a radically nationalist pro-China forum to the point where they regularly push anti-US conspiracy theories and regular usage of words like "Amerikkka".

The person you're replying to is an occasional poster to that subreddit, who surely knows this already

Lmao, HNers will eagerly doxx/dig up dirt on someone for a Gotcha moment but is offended by someone suggesting they validate propagandistic claims about a foreign country.

Honestly I have no recollection of ever visiting reddit Sino subreddit.

Which means you're an active lurker there and saw his name often?

>Which means you're an active lurker there and saw his name often?

I guess what you're trying to ask me is "How do you know that?"?

But rather than trusting any more of my claims, I suggest that you simply visit Reddit and look: You will see exactly the same unusual user name; with the same interests as here in various diverse topics; and the same writing style

Really, I think the initial question about the OP's behavior on Reddit was intrusive and probably out of line in HN etiquette, and the OP could ignore it

But I commented because the OP did engage with that question, and lied. And also because you then replied to OP in good faith, not realizing that you were wasting your time by trying to help someone who is obviously being disingenuous

I think it's fair to call out people who are spreading disinformation. I see the same patterns among some posters here and on reddit.

The two commenters above recommended youtube channels that A. are very low quality, B. repeat state media talking points verbatim, and C. are made by people who don't even speak Chinese, so they don't actually understand what is actually happening around them in their daily lives.

I’ll add these to my sources, thanks.

Mind that some of those mentioned receive money from the CCP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOIrsmjRFxU

Well here's what Cyrus Janssen has to say about accusations of him being paid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb-6fgN3MZA

TLDR: he didn't only not get paid, he refused payment. Plus the payment offer was not "we pay you to say this" but "we want to license your content for republication" and "we pay you a fee for the trouble of appearing on our show to give your independent opinions".

Yep, thanks.

Mind you, accused of being paid.

I recommend you to watch arguments from both sides and then decide for yourself whether the accusation is right or not.

Alright, mom! Sheesh!!

And Sandy Hook was a false flag op, because grifters would never lie on the internet.

Cyrus was recently exposed as paid by CGTN.

Dumbshill recently posted a clip of an old video of laowhy86, “exposing” him as a racist… which turned out to be taken extremely out of context and edited to be purposely misleading.

You should check his rebuttal to the "exposure" then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb-6fgN3MZA

Let people watch both and decide for themselves who to trust.

Hard to form an informative opinion when he released that AFTER he got exposed. It's possible that video is just him trying to save his skin. Just saying.

laowhy86, serpentza

Here's why both of them are not reliable sources: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/145210963079286784...

In addition there was a marked change in tone from when they were in China. I subscribed and enjoyed that content and the two Exploring documentaries. Really good content.

When they left China it started to sound like highly personalized hate speech. I initially assumed that it was because they were upset at having their livelihoods up-ended and a sense of rejection. But... initially they had great plans for wide-ranging travel documentaries which did not seem to pan out ... so it seems like the next-best thing is Five Minutes Hate against our enemies in East Asia.

Sad to see them degenerate, but not living there now they are not much of a source of information.

This is exactly how I feel about laowhy86 and serpentza too. So much great content in the past but times have changed.