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Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by judge2020 on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:11PM (#29281726)
> It's a dying breed though, complicated "driver assist" systems are becoming standard or even mandated :(.

It saves lives, even if the systems are not 100% effective.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by kgermino on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:32PM (#29282025)
I don't disagree, but it makes the car much more complicated and expensive which are valid negatives.

Small cars with low hoods and good visibility don't need those systems nearly as much as large SUV's with dangerous hood designs and poor side/rear visibility. I think we should focus on the total safety of the vehicle instead of pushing everything to be bigger and more expensive which makes car ownership hard for poorer people.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by sovnade on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:45PM (#29282214)
New features always show up in higher end cars first. Economies of scale eventually work out and it trickles down to even the lowest trim. I don't have the numbers but it seems like more cars than not nowadays have things like backup cameras, blind spot indicators, etc - and those basically didn't exist from the factory 15 years ago.

edit: talking about non-highline models. hondas, fords, hyundais, dodge, etc.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ospzfmbbzr on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:18PM (#29282630)
What a pile. Blind spot detection system malfunction a lot to the point of being useless. Front collision detection is just annoying. I have driven for 40 years and have never rear-ended anyone or run over a pedestrian. These 'safety' 'features' are only useful to terrible drivers. Decent drivers are just annoyed by the car fighting you. I guess they need to have some way to keep adding features so the price points never drop. You are being sold things based on the deliberate cultivation of irrational fears in your own mind (as usual).
Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by artimaeis on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:42PM (#29282929)
What a pile. Your anecdata are not in and of themselves data.

Regardless of your skill, or the skill/expertise/attentiveness of any individual driver, drivers as a collective remain dangerous to themselves and pedestrians. How did I come to this conclusion? I reviewed data, here's a couple of sources:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-fatality-data-show...

https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

By all means, if you have data that shows people are inherently becoming better drivers, or that there's a method to improve _all_ drivers systemically -- let's talk about it.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by hedora on Friday November 19, 2021 @10:31PM (#29285320)
The only really useful numbers are in the table of fatalities per million miles travelled. We see a big win as airbags were rolled out, but no big win since driver assistance technologies were introduced.

I’m not sure what conclusion you’re deriving from that, but the data seems to support the counter argument that these technologies are of dubious value.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ospzfmbbzr on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:09PM (#29283235)
Generally requests in comments to cite sources or provide data are in fact simply disingenuous attempts to confuse the issue.

Regardless, your datas mean nothing -- They are only guaranteed to be incorrect for each individual case.

You say collectively drivers are dangerous, but the implication is that we would apply the same rule to all in the interest of 'fairness' or some other such subjective nonsense.

So it's 'Drag everyone down to the same low level?' Is that the solution?

NO.

You are allowed to make mistakes in a free country and pay the price. Saying you are not free to hurt others implies you would do so -- even in the face of a lifetime of safe driving and non-criminal behavior.

Those bodies compiling the statistic you quote exist for the sole purpose of bureaucratic enrichment through the creation of rules -- whether they are ever really needed is irrelevant to them.

I'll end with a quote from a man much wiser than any of us on this board.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by artimaeis on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:27PM (#29283416)
If my attempt to cite a source is a veiled attempt to confuse the issue, then what is your citation of anecdata? And what is your context of this very argument, if not a meta-argument?

Regardless, it seems like you prefer the idea of anarchy to order on the roads. Especially since order can only come from groups which exist for enrichment through creation and enforcement of rules. I'm sure your decades of experience have proved to you that a road without laws and bureaucracy is best for all. After all, tyranny is super bad, so less tyranny is always more good!

I'll sign off with my own C.S. Lewis quote.

"One of the most cowardly things ordinary people do is to shut their eyes to facts."

-- C. S. Lewis (2010). “The Voyage of the Dawn Treader”

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ospzfmbbzr on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:31PM (#29283461)
I believe in people wanting to not die generally.

Well at least you used a CS Lewis quote. That made me smile.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ghostpepper on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:26PM (#29283404)
As an aside I think you might enjoy this book

http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/why-we-drive

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by egeozcan on Friday November 19, 2021 @11:22PM (#29285532)
> You are allowed to make mistakes in a free country and pay the price.

Like, "let's get rid of all the checks and punish people after they cause damage"?

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by itsoktocry on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:45PM (#29282968)
>What a pile. Blind spot detection system malfunction a lot to the point of being useless. Front collision detection is just annoying.

Been driving cars with blind spot detection and front collision for years. Never had a "malfunction". I live in Canada. When it's snowy, the system turns off (and the driving experience is worse).

Seems downright crazy to not want these features. If you think "real drivers" don't want these things you don't spend enough time on the road. Commuting is not about "the driving experience". Most accidents are caused by people not paying attention, which is what these features solve.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ospzfmbbzr on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:48PM (#29283002)
> I live in Canada

So do I -- and I drove all the worst highways for years in winter without these useless intrusions. Often in the middle of the night to get to a ski hill in some part of BC for the next day.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by Misdicorl on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:06PM (#29283197)
Given that cars are by far the most common cause of violent injury and death, I think it's kind of silly to call it an irrational fear.

You are not exceptional. You are maaaaybe in the top quintile of driver competence. Very likely not if you've been driving for forty years- your reaction times are trash compared to a twenty year old. These driver assist features would help you be a safer driver.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by ospzfmbbzr on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:14PM (#29283270)
> Given that cars are by far the most common cause of violent injury and death

Actually that is Governments. Most in the 20th century at least for sure. Probably all time.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by Misdicorl on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:16PM (#29283289)
Fair point.
Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by johnea on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:38PM (#29282122)
You know, actually paying attention to driving saves lives too. But apparently that is not an option.

Driving is just too big of a distraction from playing with instagram...

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by dntrkv on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:22PM (#29282693)
You do realize, you can be distracted unintentionally, right?

Child crying in the backseat, car malfunctioning, animal crossing the road, object hitting your windshield, a car accident occurring next to you, being fired from your job and your wife divorcing you when you find out you have cancer, a meteor hitting the earth, a big sneeze, I could keep going.

Re:Ask HN: Best cars without too much digitalization? by olyjohn on Friday November 19, 2021 @04:00PM (#29282407)
Instagram is one distraction, so is navigating through a bunch of touch screen menus to turn up the heat or turn down volume.