News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:19PM (#29270713)
> perhaps we can make liquid fuels out of H2

You're describing hydrocarbons.

The most-common element in the universe married to the most-common four-bonding element. Using solar panels to synthesize Jet A is probably a better path forward than redesigning every plane in the world to trawl a balloon or carry a pressure vessel.

There's a reason pretty much all of Earth's biology uses hydrocarbons as its fuel of choice.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by dragontamer on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:25PM (#29270782)
> You're describing hydrocarbons.

Well yes. But I'm also aware that H2 is a component in the synthetic production of those hydrocarbons. Using the H2 directly could prove beneficial. But if not, then we can always convert it into some combination of C and H and burn that instead.

Either way: producing H2 from clean sources (like this weird chemical solar panel thingy) is a good thing.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by pfdietz on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:39PM (#29272041)
Hydrogen also should enable more hydrocarbons to be produced from biomass, by hydrodeoxygenation: (CH2O)n + n H2 --> (CH2)n + n H2O.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jabl on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:59AM (#29274536)
IIRC traditional Fischer-Tropsch synthesis of liquid hydrocarbons from coal or biomass is about 30-40% efficient. Partly because the C:H ratio of the source material is not the same as the end product (the excess goes up the smokestack), but also because part of the energy embodied in the source is needed to run the reaction itself.

Adding hydrogen can fix both of these problems, enabling efficiency up to 150% (compared to the energy in the source material, not including the hydrogen). This is kind of a big deal, since for large-scale carbon-neutral production of synthetic hydrocarbons the bottleneck is the source of carbon. Hydrogen can be produced (nearly) carbon-free in unlimited quantities, but barring a breakthrough in DAC technology where is your sustainable source of carbon? And no, we don't want to replace pristine rain forests with biomass plantations.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jl6 on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:14AM (#29275622)
What's wrong with biomass plantations as a source of renewable carbon, assuming you don't build them on rainforests?
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by VBprogrammer on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:43AM (#29275854)
From a biodiversity point of view. Everything.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by pfdietz on Friday November 19, 2021 @06:54AM (#29276285)
The generic problem with biomass is the low overall efficiency of photosynthesis. It doesn't work well when it gets too cold or hot, and can use huge amounts of water.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by Jedd on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:11PM (#29272276)
> There's a reason pretty much all of Earth's biology uses hydrocarbons as its fuel of choice.

I feel you are suggesting the reason is because it's an ideal energy transport mechanism, while ignoring the (not insignificant) fact that almost all the hydrocarbons we've used so far have been, effectively, free energy.

Or at the least, incur a cost that we have not yet had to contend with.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:25PM (#29272375)
> while ignoring the (not insignificant) fact that almost all the hydrocarbons we've used so far have been, effectively, free energy

The reference to biology using hydrocarbons as its preferred energy store is one to fat, not fossil fuels.

That’s far from free energy. And life likely wound up that way because its precursors—hydrogen and carbon—are readily available, it’s energy dense both volumetrically and by mass, it’s safe and it can be converted into various forms of energy directly and easily.

Ultimately, the big unknown is the cost of synthesising Jet A. I think it will be low enough that it blows the hydrogen hypothesis out of the water, but I don’t have more than a hunch to go off.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jabl on Friday November 19, 2021 @02:21AM (#29274665)
> And life likely wound up that way because its precursors—hydrogen and carbon—are readily available, it’s energy dense both volumetrically and by mass, it’s safe and it can be converted into various forms of energy directly and easily.

Yes. Most of the available energy is in the hydrogen bonds, but if you want to 'tame' neat hydrogen by binding it to something else, from all the stuff in the periodic table carbon is pretty much the optimal choice.

> Ultimately, the big unknown is the cost of synthesising Jet A. I think it will be low enough that it blows the hydrogen hypothesis out of the water, but I don’t have more than a hunch to go off.

To the extent one of the inputs to synthetic Jet A is hydrogen, it won't be cheaper as such. So the question really is whether the added cost is low enough that the easier logistics of a room-temperature liquid fuel makes the total cost lower. I'm slightly hopeful that this will eventually be the case.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by taf2 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:28PM (#29272772)
If we can get it be unleaded in the air - and perhaps a little less loud… I live on a river and also a jet path. It’s like a freeway at night and also the residue from the jet exhaust is rather annoying to clean off the boat…
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jabl on Friday November 19, 2021 @02:25AM (#29274694)
Jet fuel has never contained lead. Lead is still used in aviation gasoline, used by small propeller planes (larger propeller planes typically use turboprop engines that use jet fuel). But consumption of aviation gasoline is a very small fraction of the consumption of jet fuel.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by bobthepanda on Friday November 19, 2021 @01:57AM (#29274528)
Jets have actually declined significantly in loudness over the past decades.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by tambourine_man on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:58PM (#29272578)
> There's a reason pretty much all of Earth's biology uses hydrocarbons as its fuel of choice.

Carbohydrate != hydrocarbon.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jazzyjackson on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:04PM (#29272613)
what’s a little oxygen between friends?
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by dsign on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:12AM (#29274947)
>> perhaps we can make liquid fuels out of H2

> You're describing hydrocarbons.

This is technically correct, but at the right pressure, it becomes politically incorrect.

Right now there is already a huge push against fossil fuels, to the point that countries are setting dates for forbidding internal combustion engines in cars. Note that this will take effect independently of the source of fuel, fossil or otherwise. And methane, which is relatively easy to produce from bio-waste, it is a potent greenhouse gas.

For now, the public is divided. Nobody likes the consequences of global warming but nobody likes to give up the convenience of hydrocarbons.

Give it some time or add some more climate shock, and the public may change opinion to be against all fuels that contain some form of carbon, no matter the origin.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by phicoh on Friday November 19, 2021 @05:21AM (#29275670)
The problem is cost.

Technically it is quite possible to produce hydrocarbons today. In theory a government could mandate, for example, 25% green hydrocarbons in fuel in 2030.

In practice, nobody will do that because that is political suicide.

The good thing about the current BEV cars is that over the lifetime of the car they are cost effective. I will be disruptive for a while. But we now have enough experience with BEV cars to know that they are a practical solution.

Telling people that they can keep driving ICE cars in the future, without telling them that green hydrocarbons are going to cost a fortune and would prevent everybody except some rich people from actually driving ICE cars does not help.

Of course, that could all change if we can find a cheap way to make green hydrogen at scale. With current technology we need to get rid of ICE cars. We can always revisit that if green hydrogen becomes abundant.

Personally I would also be happy if all burning of hydrocarbons gets removed from cities. There is no reason to keep breathing exhaust gasses other than that the fuel is cheap.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by cameronh90 on Friday November 19, 2021 @08:26AM (#29276890)
ICEs in cars hurt local air quality and cause significant noise pollution. Even if you eliminate the fossil fuel aspect, it's still worth switching to EVs.

Aeroplanes have no viable alternative right now, and the noise/particulates issue aren't as big of a problem unless you live near an airport.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jacquesm on Friday November 19, 2021 @03:56AM (#29275174)
> Nobody likes the consequences of global warming but nobody likes to give up the convenience of hydrocarbons.

Nobody wants to give up the convenience of personal transportation using automobiles. And for the United States, a good chunk of which was designed around that this is a serious problem.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by Blammar on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:24PM (#29270774)
Yes, exactly! Or any other hydrocarbon. This is a carbon-neutral process also, as the carbon will come from CO2 in the atmosphere. And we get the bonus of extra oxygen in the air...
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by dahfizz on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:50PM (#29271077)
Wouldn't the extra oxygen get burned up as you burn the fuel? It would be a carbon neutral and oxygen neutral process.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by xvedejas on Thursday November 18, 2021 @05:07PM (#29271244)
I think you're right, the oxygen would be sourced from water and water is also one major product of hydrocarbon combustion, which can be easy to forget.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by unmole on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:50PM (#29272118)
> And we get the bonus of extra oxygen in the air...

Why would this be desirable?

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by samplatt on Thursday November 18, 2021 @11:29PM (#29273849)
Lowering the density of surface co2 could result in a reduction of the cognitive impairment caused by the already-increased co2 levels. It would also mean combustible fuels of all sorts would burn more efficiently.

/s, mostly

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by yread on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:05PM (#29271745)
You could use other elements than C to bind the hydrogen, for example Si. But they are difficult to produce, toxic, unstable and the SiO2 would clog up nozzles

Silanes as Fuel for Aerospace Propulsion

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009TrSpT...7.Pa33S/abstra...

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by tonyarkles on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:55PM (#29272156)
There was an article on here the other day about a new approach to generating electricity from ammonia. The downside, though, is that creating ammonia needs H2 feedstock, which is often made by stripping the carbon off of methane obtained from natural gas.

If this is a useful way to get H2 feedstock for producing ammonia, that’s interesting on its own!

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by hinkley on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:04PM (#29272236)
We used to make refrigerators using ammonia as the working gas, too, but concentrated ammonia kills.

    Exposure to high concentrations of ammonia in air causes immediate burning of the eyes, nose, throat and respiratory tract and can result in blindness, lung damage or death. Inhalation of lower concentrations can cause coughing, and nose and throat irritation.
Huffing gasoline is really bad, but not ammonia cloud bad.
Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by jabl on Friday November 19, 2021 @02:32AM (#29274738)
Also the energy density of liquid ammonia is only about half that of liquid hydrocarbons. In the family of nitrogen fuels there's also hydrazine, which is much spiffier, but if you're worried about the toxicity of ammonia, well.. Yeah, maybe we don't want civilians filling up their cars with hydrazine.

The benefit of nitrogen fuels as a carbon-neutral fuel is that getting nitrogen from the atmosphere is a lot easier than extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

Re:Solar-driven water splitting at 13.8% solar-to-hydrogen e... by fmajid on Thursday November 18, 2021 @09:44PM (#29273208)
Fischer-Tropsch. But today, it's the reverse, most hydrogen is produced from methane.