Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by Specie33 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @11:28AM
(#29218168)
This is very Sam Zell no BS type advice....When a big company runs out of money, the basic questions are (1) who gets paid and who doesn’t and (2) should the government pay its debts for it?
Guessing whom gets paid back first is often a great way to make a lot of money if you can monetize it. Think MBS tranches AAA or BBB. With the international real estate market being at all time highs there is a huge movement of money that will trade hands in the next 10 years. How that will happen and how to gain exposure is the 1mm dollar question. Maybe Aladdin and BLRK have the answer?
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by mjevans on Thursday November 11, 2021 @04:07AM
(#29186007)
Housing should be a human right, not an investment.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by dash2 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:05AM
(#29186702)
The guy down the road from me got his flat as a human right. He throws his empty bottles on to the street where I have to walk my dog. The rumour is his sister is also in there and is on the game. His behaviour is making the guy who lives beneath him not sleep at night. The housing association has given up "trying to support him to change his behaviour" and is now taking him to court. By the end of the year, we all hope, he will be out of his flat. Then he will be given another flat, next to some even unluckier people, as a human right.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by BoiledCabbage on Thursday November 11, 2021 @09:42AM
(#29188295)
Sounds like he's an ass. And if he paid rent he'd still be an ass. It's not a magic cure for what's wrong with him.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by dash2 on Thursday November 11, 2021 @01:59PM
(#29191638)
To an extent. But if you give asses free money, that doesn't tend to change their behaviour.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by Specie33 on Sunday November 14, 2021 @11:32AM
(#29218203)
Give the homeless one of the houses in St Louie or Gary. They can fix it up and have a place.
There is lots of housing that is not expensive but people have to WORK for it or it doesn't mean anything.
Re:Evergrande teeters on edge of default as $148M payment fa...
by AlexCoventry on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @04:16PM
(#29180941)
Thanks.
From Matt Levine:
It seems to me that what is interesting about Evergrande is not so much the magnitude of its debt problems but their variety. Evergrande owes money to Chinese banks. It owes money to foreign hedge funds, and foreign investors own its stock. It owes money to suppliers, and to Chinese retail investors in those wealth management products. And it owes apartments to buyers. And the retail investors who bought Evergrande wealth management products were often also Evergrande homeowners, because the products were sold at Evergrande buildings:
In fact they were apparently advertised in the elevators: And it also sold the wealth management products to employees: These products were simultaneously (1) “categorised as fixed-income products suitable for ‘conservative investors seeking steady returns’” and (2) sold with 11% yields. Seems bad!When a big company runs out of money, the basic questions are (1) who gets paid and who doesn’t and (2) should the government pay its debts for it? Those questions are interconnected. There is an ordinary way to answer the first question, some waterfall of claim seniority. You look at the company’s capital structure and say “well these people have senior claims and will get paid back, and these people have junior claims and won’t, and these other people are somewhere in the middle and might get some recovery.” And there are complex and subtle questions about the best way to preserve value in the business: Perhaps you have the legal right to stiff customers (perhaps their deposits aren’t particularly senior claims), but if you do that you’ll never get any more customers, so you treat them better than you are legally required to. And the managers of the business and the creditors and the lawyers work together to figure out a plan that maximizes the recovery for everyone.
But if the ordinary process to answer the first question ends up with an answer like “sympathetic ordinary people lose their life savings,” or “politically connected people lose everything,” or “the banking system loses a lot of money and becomes undercapitalized,” or for that matter “housing prices collapse,” then that is a good reason for the government to step in. And if the government is stepping in, there is no particular reason to assume that the ordinary claims of seniority will apply. If the government steps in to rescue small investors or the banking system or housing prices, that doesn’t necessarily mean it will also rescue foreign hedge funds.
Bloomberg’s Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway did an Odd Lots episode with analyst Travis Lundy about this, in which he gives his best guess at a waterfall of repayment. “I think that if you start from the ranking of who ends up coming out well on this, if you had to ask, this is the Communist Party of China who's the most important stakeholder in this,” he says, and then goes through a list of claimants ordered by, basically, how politically sympathetic they are. This seems like a more reasonable analysis than, like, looking at the corporate structure and legal document to see which claims are more senior.
Much of the writing about Evergrande has been about “is this China’s Lehman moment?” The main lesson of Lehman was that the collapse of a big levered interconnected firm could cause serious economic damage, and since Lehman, financial regulators in the U.S. and Europe have done a lot of work on reducing leverage and interconnection and damage.