That's before you get into the "openness" of PC - if you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
The new Alder Lake CPUs apparently breaks a bunch of games, since their DRM thinks that the new Intel efficiency-cores are a second PC trying to play on the same license.
Some games will only work if you upgrade to Windows 11, and all games should work if you find a BIOS option and enable it, but only some CPUs support that BIOS option.
Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz...
And there's also all the other older horror stories of DRM, like the Denuvo DRM adding a huge performance hit on some games. Or not being able to play your offline single-player games at all, since the Denuvo DRM servers have temporarily offline due to a DNS issue.
(Disclaimer, despite all the issues, I do personally prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but I'm biased that I already have a powerful PC for CUDA/C++ programming and development, so I've already spent a bunch of money and time into PCs already).
Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable.
They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
> What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?
File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that.
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
It's not a hypothetical issue or a bug, it's a common problem for games that use anti-cheat software. Refusing to run when virtualization features are turned on or virtualization software is installed/present is a common tactic they use and if you file a report it'll usually get immediately closed as wontfix, because it's a tradeoff they decide to make. E.g. https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-Yo...
But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals.
I’ve played on Xbox live with my cousins on steam in F1 2020, age of empires, gta 4, halo.
The only friction is initial invites from the specific platform but once we’ve played in the same server, it’s very easy to send in-game invites.
As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. COD4 was absolutely ruined because of it. Virtualization isn’t very widespread but I’m sure they’ll be more accommodative soon as WSL and Android ship by default on Windows.
No need for hypotheticals, Deep Rock Galactic [0] doesn't support play between the MS store and steam. Minecraft [1] has two versions that say they support cross play, except you can't play between the two (and depending on how you purchase the version you're playing, this is not clear, e.g. [2]). Marvel vs capcom Infinite doesn't supoort play between the MS Store and Steam [3]. You mentioned Age of Empires and F1 2020, but googling for those two seems to suggest that both of those games suffer from the same issue; [4] [5]
> As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games.
I understand the issues, virtualisation was an example of an issue I faced. (and it's actually not even a virtualisation issue, it's a virtual network adapter issue!) In the last few years I've had issues with Graphics drivers that are apparently too old, drivers that are too _new_, crashes when changing audio devices, windows update blocking game installs, anticheat failing to install/update, problems with performance on a very high end PC due to third party software (chrome). They're the issues I've had, and in my group of 8 or so friends that I play with regularly, the above are common, and everyone has their "own" set of issues.
[0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info [1] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft [2] https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ [3] https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infi... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_micr... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossp...
Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
As for F1 and Age of empires, I play it with my cousins weekly - you're welcome to join us through live or steam (I'm UranicAlloy580 on xbox live). Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago.
Of course it is, but that doesn't matter to a player who owns the game because microsoft say "Play anywhere" and "Crossplay" on their official marketing materials [0]
> Minecraft is inherently different here because they went for a re-write and chose to have two different "editions" of the game.
It doesn't really matter _why_, the fact is that it's the reality of being on an open platform that doesn't enforce these criteria. Being on a console you have to play by the rules of the platform which means that a bunch of things "just work", and those rules _mostly_ apply on PC, except when they don't.
> Links you posted are questions/troubleshoot from 1+ year ago. The AOE2 one, sure. F1 2019 doesn't work between the MS store and Steam still. That doesn't change the fact that these issues exist on PC, and they don't on console.
[0] https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/08/19/preview-deep-rock-gal...
That only launches the game through the correct store. If the game doesn't implement cross play, you can't play together.
> They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game.
But you're trying to be in game with the person, and again if the game doesn't do in-game voice chat, you have to find alternatives. On a console you join a party and the software correctly handles the cases around "do I want to put you in a voice chat channel for your game" (because it has to to pass certification).
> File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
Really helpfully closed after 30 days of inactivity. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42. (I didn't make this bug, but I found it, and just logged onto my xbox instead).
I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
That is very much game specific. As an example, Deep Rock Galactic doesn't support playing between Steam and the MS store [0]
> I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people.
All of those options require you to coordinate your play outside of the game and the platform. If you are playing Sea of Thieves on Steam with friends using steam voice chat, and one person joins via the MS store, you need to figure out out how to get them into the correct place. If you're all on xbox, they just join your party.
> Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends?
I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it.
You can’t eat the cake and have it too. If you’re technically skilled to be using containers and virtualization, least you could do is file a helpful bug report.
I have nephews who are tinkering with Java and python, and I assume will be hitting docker at some point.
You're being incredibly nitpicky over a reasonable example of why PC is not as plug-and-play as a console. On a console, the game will work. On a PC, there are a lot of factors that may prevent it from working.
The entire "use a PC" premise is that the PC can be useful for gaming as well as for non-gaming uses, and the counter-argument is that those non-gaming uses can easily cause problems for the gaming uses. Docker is not the only example, tools like fiddler or wireshark or ghidra could cause problems. But heaven forbid that a gamer on hackernews be a tech enthusiast, right?
No, heaven forbid they want to tinker then complain but don't want to spend 5 minutes to file a bug report or follow the hacker way of actually figuring the issue out and proposing a fix.
And docker misconfiguration causing issues in unrelated services is one another reason why I'd suggest they have their own.
Same would go for any console, phone etc. You can’t just install stuff with known issues from 3rd parties, not file report with any diagnostics and then blame it on the platform. Would you blame iOS for a badly behaving app that makes it hard for the kids to use the iPad?
So again, for the huge number of people whose life involves technology there are a lot of things that can throw a wrench into that PC for gaming, and in those cases a console makes a lot of sense. It's a little odd to me that this bothers you so much; surely it is expected that consoles have a good usecase given their popularity?
xbox apps on Windows do not care about virtualization, in fact they probably can't - because xbox os is essentially a subset of windows as host and guest.
None of this is relevant. Maybe Docker's interface is "improperly configured" for the gaming use case. It remains a headache, and using a console is a viable solution that allows you to work with buggy instances of Docker without disrupting your gaming.
- At the beginning of the release cycle consoles are often sold at a loss, the money is made back from game sales (a $60 PC game costs $70 on console)
- It's much easier to optimize for the known hardware configuration of a console than for "all PCs". Console hardware isn't high-end, the heavy lifting is done by heavy optimization of the games for the specific hardware
Sometimes with significant quality downgrades, I remember texture quality of early Skyrim being abyssal because the whole game was console optimized. On the other hand there is cyberpunk which apparently didn't even reliably run on some of the consoles it was released on, no idea if it was because of released date agreements or if it was just a shitty money grab.
As far as I understand the great upside of consoles in the past was that the manufacturers strictly vetted the quality of games you could release for them. There have been a few "scandals" where they obviously rescinded those controls to get a game out in time for a specific season only to have it crash and burn. Not sure how strict the controls are now, do they still vet the games strictly or is it just an app store with minimal quality checks?
- even cheaper, and not a case of paying later for $70 games
- exclusives: by far the biggest draw to switch
Interesting enough to spur Valve to launch a portable competitor so it'll be interesting to see how those pros hold up.
Insane amount of value, I haven’t purchased a game other than bf2042 in past two years.
They're subsidised by the game prices. You still pay for it in the end.
> Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
You can use a PC in the same way. If you position it well, you can even have a dual purpose work/entertainment PC.
How much is a half-decent game PC ? €2000 ? Compare to a €500 console. For €1500 I can buy a lot of 'overpriced' games.
currently it would be 1.5k+€, but thats because of the silicon shortage and scalpers. and fwiw, a ps5 was going for 1.4k just a few month ago too.
If that's what you care about then buying a modern console is a terrible idea, however you can buy a "retro" console (xbox 360) with dozens of games ver practically nothing (The first match on gumtree near me was a 360, 2 controllers and 35 games for £60)
On PC they even have BotW DLC. https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/03/introducing_second... there’s no comparison for functionality.
The new Xbox can emulate (very poorly, less than a weaker computer can, but it’ll get better) too, it’s why the xbone with dev mode for homebrew was never hacked. https://www.ggrecon.com/articles/emulate-playstation-2-xbox-...
If I had to buy a console, form factor is the most important, I love my PSP. Could play NES, some SNES and very slow N64, perfect compatibility PS1 emulator, GB+GBC,GBA and of course PSP games. The homebrew on it for apps was amazing too with music players, ebook readers, cheats for every game, ability to change clock for battery life or performance, really a game changing device.
How many games can you buy for 500€ max? About 10 or so. Maybe.
It's entirely fair as there is more possibility of free PC games, or them being of negligible cost since you pay lower platform fees.
This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
> since you pay lower platform fees
The platform fees (not required by the way) are roughly the cost of one game per year, if not cheaper. Gamepass being a very different discussion (and is available on PC too)
> This is in addition to the opportunity costs you incur of not buying a PC or having a lower powered PC as a PC can be used for other things (ie, office work, taxes, other productivity tasks).
I don't know about you but I don't want my work PC to be where I relax in the evenings, and many people don't want their employers software or information on their personal devices. I also live in a country where I don't have to fill in my own taxes, and almost all of my personal computing needs are met by my phone.
Work related stuf I do on my work-provided MacBook Pro, that costs me €0. For browsing the web, e-mail and taxes I just use my iPad.
Less than a PC
And PC games also cost money, at least if we're talking about similar types of games as on the consoles.
Also keep in mind that consoles are subject to the very same price increase, it's nearly impossible to obtain a console for the advertised price.
And the GPU prices have been rather expensive, if not as outright insane as right now for years. So PC gaming in general has become less attractive from a financial point while console prices are pretty much the same (though with some difficulty in getting them, for sure).
Same for all other components, it's no longer true that you need current-gen technology to be able to play with Graphics put on High.
And the PS5 won't be able to match the PCs capability of doing productive things when not gaming.
No, not really.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vega+56&_saca...
[0] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2021-call-...
[1] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-assas...
It is also a huge kinda expensive PITA to setup a PC to handle Blu-rays and do Netflix and YouTube as well as a console. UHD drives are not cheap and you need paid software like PowerDVD to actually watch the disc. Getting a good remote interface is tough and when swapping between games, blurays and Netflix/YouTube and games requires entering mouse land. On console its all designed to be used from the couch and works well that way and you can easily get a compatible remote for $20-30 if your TV's doesn't work over HDMI CEC.
But subsidizing doesn't necessarily mean unequal pricing. It does not follow from equal pricing that a part of the $60 for a PS5 game didn't go into subsidizing the platform. For example, for all we know, a comparable amount of money for the PC game could have gone into extra development and QA effort necessary to support the more varied PC ecosystem so in the end the prices could be the same anyway, even without the game vendor willing to give up some profits for one or the other.
Not without significantly more work. A console you just plugin to your TV and you're good to go, with a PC you want to use for both work and entertainment you'll need to finagle all sorts of things. One major hurdle I've yet to overcome seamlessly is playing on my TV/Home Theater from a computer in my office. When I game I prefer to get full immersion, but there really aren't any great, easy to use solutions that allow such a setup. I could get a separate computer for the Home Theater purpose, but now again it's easier/cheaper to just get a console.
Initial game prices can be higher, but you can sell the games. Here in Australia it's common for new games to be $100 on console and $80-90 on PC. A month after release I can still sell a console game for $80, and often do, since I prefer single-player adventure/RPG type games which I will take 5+ years to replay if I ever do. That effectively means that games cost me $20 to play on a console or $80-90 to play on a PC. I prefer playing on PC for all the other reasons but it's really hard to justify the extra cost now that used PC games are no longer a thing.
Only if you buy new games at launch.
Consoles still have physical media, so from few days to few weeks you can grab games at a large discount.
The cost of new releases on steam or the epic store is very close to the cost of a new release on console, so if you are jumping on new releases straight away the savings are very very slim
Might as well buy a better PC to do everything.
A lot of people I know use console + Mac.
That's one of the reasons I hate consoles on an ideological level. Unless there are technical reason that make porting the game so hard that it's just not worth it, the only reason for "exclusives" to exist is to fuck over consumers.
Some of those games are funded and developed wouldn't of been made if it wasn't for the fact they wanted to have games to sell the console. They are not fucking you over by not having it on your system, you just feel annoyed that it's not.
It's simply a business decision and marketing tool and because it's valuable you get more and better games than you would of gotten before. If there weren't such exclusives you wouldn't have such incentives and they wouldn't always exist in the first place.
At the end of the day, very few games on available on everything, and they shouldn't be required to be.
- It just works. Games can have bugs but no hassle with installation, drivers etc. Games are more or less better optimzed because all the devs are working on the same hardware. No 100s different CPU and GPU. And one operating system
- Exclusives. Studios are moving away from it to some extent but some games can still be only played on consoles
- Home entertainment system. Youtube, Netflix, blurays etc.
That being said I have a gaming PC and consoles too mostly becasue of the exclusives