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Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by bradwood on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:34PM (#29110883)
This will likely have to be tested in court if not fixed legislatively.

What is more concerning is that legislators can come up with this clearly unworkable law without doing a modicum of research.

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by josho on Thursday November 04, 2021 @04:17PM (#29112052)
I don’t understand the issue.

Today if I have a cash transaction greater than $10k I have to report it. This bill just clarified that cash includes digital assets.

Is your issue with the existing law or you feel crypto shouldn’t be treated like cash?

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by nybble41 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @05:15PM (#29112625)
> Is your issue with the existing law or you feel crypto shouldn’t be treated like cash?

Both. This law is wrong (even without the crypto / DeFi elements) and crypto shouldn't be treated like cash. It's not property, or even a legally enforceable contract like the one that governs your relationship with your bank. From any reasonable perspective it should be classified as something akin to "goodwill" and not something the law should concern itself with.

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by eutropia on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:05PM (#29113067)
It's not property, except I want to be able to own it, buy it, and sell it for $CURRENCY...
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by nybble41 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:16PM (#29113152)
It's not legally property. Legally you don't own it. If the network suddenly changes its rules and says it's not yours then you have no legal recourse against the developers/miners/etc. If you buy, that's a service; you're paying someone to apply their signature to a note in the distributed ledger. You don't own the note and the currency itself is nothing more than an abstract concept which has meaning only to the extend that there is consensus among the users, none of whom have any particular obligations toward you.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by ac29 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @07:05PM (#29113527)
> It's not legally property. Legally you don't own it. If the network suddenly changes its rules and says it's not yours then you have no legal recourse against the developers/miners/etc.

I wouldn't assume this unless you are aware of specific case law that says this. If you held some assets on a blockchain and the developers decided to block your address after you made fun of them on twitter or something, it certainly seems like you'd have standing to sue.

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by nybble41 on Friday November 05, 2021 @01:12AM (#29115691)
> If you held some assets on a blockchain and the developers decided to block your address after you made fun of them on twitter or something, it certainly seems like you'd have standing to sue.

What exactly would you sue them over? The design always depended on the voluntary consent of everyone involved. The developers never promised that the protocol would remain unchanged. This has happened before—for example, the Etherium hard-fork that reversed withdrawals from the DOA which were unexpected and unintended but authorized by the smart contract code—and no one on the losing side of that fork managed to successfully sue the developers for changing the protocol. They would have had standing if anyone did.

The developers don't even fully control it; as an open, distributed system, someone else can step in and supplant them with new client software if users (meaning mainly buyers and retailers accepting the currency) decide they prefer different rules. Whatever changes the developers might make is only an expression of their opinions about how the system should work. Other users of the network are not obligated to accept those changes if they happen to disagree.

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by josho on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:42PM (#29113353)
What may be semantically true may also be quite different than peoples perceptions. And peoples perceptions and how they functionally treat crypto is like a currency, it's even in the name. So, I strongly suspect if you tried to argue that position in a court of law, or even in a debate amongst tech. peers you would come out on the loosing end. Regardless, I appreciate your perspective. Thank you for sharing.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by bradwood on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:22AM (#29118175)
"Cryptocurrency" is well understood to be a misnomer. The correct term is "Crypto Asset" as, at least according to most tax legislation, it is not a _currency_.

Currencies do not attract CGT on disposal. Assets (like crypto) do.

This is a big difference

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by josho on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:44PM (#29113369)
> This law is wrong

Ignoring the changes to crypto, what makes the law wrong?

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by bradwood on Friday November 05, 2021 @08:24AM (#29118186)
You need to report the details of the party on the other side of the transaction. Who exactly is that when the other side is a smart contract? This part is unenforceable
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by rasengan on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:36PM (#29110917)
> without doing a modicum of research

I think they know exactly what they are doing.

Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by mattnewton on Thursday November 04, 2021 @03:37PM (#29111599)
Or rather, the lobbyists working with them know what they are doing
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by User23 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @04:10PM (#29111968)
The lobbyists are just bagmen. A big part of what they are paid for is obfuscating who actually wrote the legislation and on whose behalf they did it.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by TheBill on Thursday November 04, 2021 @03:19PM (#29111410)
They do, and they very much view it as a threat to the centralized power of the USG.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by the_optimist on Thursday November 04, 2021 @04:14PM (#29112013)
At the very least, it's a legislative shake down opportunity. Form a team 'for' and a team 'against,' and each gets paid to 'fight' by their respective consitutency.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by elil17 on Thursday November 04, 2021 @04:16PM (#29112032)
Why would this require a court test? It's clearly constitutional (commerce clause) and there are a ton of past legal cases where reporting requirements have been enforced. Any "DeFi" user/creator who tries to keep using those products after this law passes would be well advised to take a plea deal because they would really have no defense.
Re:DeFi and the “digital asset” felony hidden in the infrast... by malermeister on Thursday November 04, 2021 @05:48PM (#29112916)
Why would this law be unworkable? You are under the assumption that you have a god-given right to DeFi. You do not.

If this law is incompatible with DeFi, it is DeFi that is unworkable, not the law.