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Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by oblio on Thursday November 04, 2021 @12:10PM (#29108930)
I've read a bunch of articles where long time Emacs users are put into a position where they have to achieve something on a tight deadline. Many of them try to muddle through their Rube Goldberg contraption of a local config and under time pressure or advised by someone else they try a modern IDE and suddenly realize why many professional developers use them.

They realize that despite the potentially subpar text editing experience, a highly polished modern Integrated Development Environment is a power tool and a productivity machine for the environment it's aimed at.

One simple example, maybe Emacs can do this. Can Emacs through a press of a button, show a tooltip or a hovering window, directly over the text where my cursor is? Not another window to the side of the editing window or below it. I want my eyes to be stationary and I want the tooltip to be easily dismissable.

Plus, IDEs have professional developers writing integrations so I don't have to, and they're paid to do that for tens of thousands of paying customers, so they pretty much are guaranteed to work. They are also pretty much guaranteed to work well with other advanced integrated features.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:05PM (#29110541)
1. I'm a long time Emacs user (30+ years) and a professional developer. Trying to contrast one of these versus the other as you do twice in your comment isn't really helpful or useful.

2. Why would I want to put a tooltip over an emacs window?

3. The things that contemporary IDEs can do that Emacs may be clunkier at are mostly things I'm not interested in doing. They are also often addressable in totally different ways. The speed of tools like ag(1) and their integration into Emacs changes the need for Emacs itself to be able to take me to special places in a codebase, for example.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by oblio on Thursday November 04, 2021 @03:11PM (#29111302)
> 2. Why would I want to put a tooltip over an emacs window?

Why would you want to? I don't know.

But <<I>>'d want to :-)

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by pvaldes on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:22PM (#29110745)
> Can Emacs through a press of a button, show a tooltip or a hovering window, directly over the text where my cursor is?

Let me check...

Yes, it can do it. In org mode at least.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by klodolph on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:18PM (#29109917)
I split my time between Emacs, Rider, and VS Code these days. Of those, I spend the most time in VS Code.

I have spent way more time fighting against the VS Code configuration than I would like, and even comparing it against all the time I've spent customizing Emacs over my lifetime, I don't think VS Code can come out ahead. All this because I'm not building my project with some build system that has a simple, easy integration with the IDE. When VS Code instantly works, it's great. Otherwise, I'm editing JSON configuration files. That doesn't seem like some massive improvement over editing your .emacs file. It's often worse.

Often it comes down to working with larger projects written in multiple languages. If you are working on some bog-standard JavaScript project that runs in the browser, Node.js, or both, maybe you won't run into this stuff.

Emacs is my escape hatch for "damn, VS Code is messed up again, and I just want to work on the code instead of fussing about". I've had major problems getting VS Code to deal with the C or C++ code that I work on, like, at all. I'm hesitant to even try CLion because it sounds like many of the problems are the same there (it has great CMake integration... but I don't use CMake).

> One simple example, maybe Emacs can do this. Can Emacs through a press of a button, show a tooltip or a hovering window, directly over the text where my cursor is?

That's how code completion works in Emacs. Integrates with LSP, if you want, with various fallbacks.

LSP has really leveled the playing field between IDEs and Emacs. It lets you get a lot of the high-quality integrations, and they work well in both Emacs and IDEs. Prior to LSP, I'm going to say that the only easy way to get that kind of tooling was to use an IDE for a specific language, and it only worked well if your build system was integrated with that IDE.

> Plus, IDEs have professional developers writing integrations so I don't have to, and they're paid to do that for tens of thousands of paying customers, so they pretty much are guaranteed to work. They are also pretty much guaranteed to work well with other advanced integrated features.

My experience with C++ mode in VS Code is extremely rough.

This is the age-old problem... I remember reading people making the same complaints about IDEs and text editors on newsgroups in the 1990s. Like, if you are a Mac programmer, you want to use CodeWarrior... if it works. If you have a more complicated build system, then you need MPW. Too bad.

The experience with IDEs is getting better, much better, and I think all that is really happening is that Emacs users occasionally pop their heads over to IDE-land to see if will work for them. Sometimes it does, and you get one of those articles you're talking about.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by ReleaseCandidat on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:58PM (#29110453)
> My experience with C++ mode in VS Code is extremely rough.

That's because you're supposed to use Visual Studio for everything VS can do at all.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by klodolph on Thursday November 04, 2021 @06:24PM (#29113211)
Visual Studio can't do it at all, I'm afraid. That's why I'm not using it.

I'm fairly familiar with it, and how it's integrated with MSBuild, and what the limitations of MSBuild are, and whether I'm comfortable working within those limitations (and porting my code to Windows).

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by convolvatron on Thursday November 04, 2021 @12:41PM (#29109372)
which is all absolutely fantastic if you are following the script.
Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by oblio on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:33PM (#29110130)
The script these days is a lot more flexible than it used to be back in the 90's with Visual Studio.

It's flexible to cover maybe 90-95% of development needs for the main language targeted.

And for those clearly defined use cases, modern IDEs generally fly. Which is far from guaranteed with bespoke configurations (Emacs, Vim).

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by klodolph on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:39PM (#29110225)
90-95% of my time is spent working in at least two languages. Usually JavaScript and some backend language, like Go or Python.
Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by oblio on Thursday November 04, 2021 @01:58PM (#29110445)
And modern IDEs support 2 languages at the same time. Heck, they support dozens if not hundreds of languages at the same time.

Eclipse has Javascript and Python plugins, for example so you can code in Java, Javascript, Python at the same time.

VS Code has a ton of language plugins you can use all at the same time.

IntelliJ has a ton of language plugins you can also use all at the same time.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by ReleaseCandidat on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:25PM (#29110767)
> And modern IDEs support 2 languages at the same time. Heck, they support dozens if not hundreds of languages at the same time.

No, they don't. Show me the IDEs with Common Lisp, Coq, Ocaml, Haskell, Elm, ... support. That's actually the reason Code is a real alternative to Emacs and Intellij isn't.

Re:Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) by ReleaseCandidat on Thursday November 04, 2021 @02:02PM (#29110494)
I wouldn't use Emacs for that, and I use Emacs since more than 25 years.

Emacs shines when using Coq (with Proof General) or Common Lisp or Clojurescript (I guess Clojure too). But for mainstream languages like JS, Go or Python you're better off with something like Code.