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Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Saturday August 20, 2011 @12:41AM (#2905753)
Good for them. More people need to reject this archaic sexist tradition. Legal enforcement of the fantasy notion of "true love for life" is damn near barbaric.

If you and your partner can swing it, more power to you, but social pressure on others to place themselves into legally binding situations revolving around this notion is something that need to die.

In the west (at least the states) these are legally binding arrangements that are heavily biased against males, but if women are rejecting that in Asia then all the better.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:01AM (#2905804)
Whether or not marriage as an institution is biased against males or females (honestly, it seems to be biased against both) I am always astounded by people who see no value whatsoever in marriage.

America is practically founded on capitalism. How can you understand specialization & its benefits, and not see how marriage (well, used to) makes use of it?

Yes, if marriage was just about pretending "True Love is real, and the world is full of roses and daisies!" it would be a ridiculous sham. But as I have come to see it, it is more about facing the world as a "team". In larger groups (that is to say, extended family, all composed of marriage links), perhaps even as a "tribe"... think about that.

(Not to mention, kids are a thing we kind of need as a species, and I think most everyone is familiar with the plight of single parents)

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by bobo888 on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:23AM (#2905856)
I don't think that marriage in USA is biased against anyone. But the divorce is HEAVILY biased agains men. For example, more than 70% of divorces are initiated by women, while they also get the custody of the children 90% of the time.

When it comes for child support, it's even worse. If in a family the husband begins to get a lower salary due to the state of the economy, then everybody should/will spend less. But if a divorced father gets a lower salary, "the child's standard of living must not change". Did you earn $200,000 per year pre-divorce, and now you barely can find work for $50,000? Too bad for you, you'll have to get an extra job to be able to pay the same amount of child support. If you fail to pay, you get to jail, but the support payments accumulate, so when you get out you'll be in even more debt, which will land you back in jail, and so on. And of course, this whole time, you will be considered a "deadbeat dad".

BTW, I was shocked to find out that, in some states, men* have to pay lifetime alimony. With all due respect, guys who get married on these terms are insane.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:32AM (#2905883)
Marriage itself can be quite biased against males in the states. I have a friend who's wife successfully divorced him because she was not being "sexually satisfied". If a male tried to do the same, people would scream "domestic rape". Expectations of each sex, viewed through the lense of the courts, are very uneven.

And of course after the divorce the situation only becomes more dire.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:09AM (#2905958)
If only that was the worst of cases. My mind is continually blown by the cases in which husband catches wife cheating, husband sues for divorce, wife gets custody, half of assets and alimony.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by whyenot on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:46AM (#2905920)
please cite your sources
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:07AM (#2905952)
This is one of those things teetering on the edge of "public knowledge". I have never met a single person who believes women receive the short end of the stick in divorce. In fact the only complaint from the women's end of things I've ever heard is '50% of his income is not enough'.

It is of course anecdotal, but as best I can tell, it is anecdotal evidence that is shared by every person in America- aka, 'public knowledge'.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by pyre on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:38AM (#2906011)
I won't base too much too heavily on it. The idea that blacks were sub-human was once "public knowledge" because everyone had an anecdote about a black person doing something stupid.

It should be stated that:

* 'Common sense' is not necessarily common.

* 'Public knowledge' doesn't always match up to reality and can often be influenced by social biases (i.e. you may only remember the cases of a man getting the shaft in a divorce, but easily forget the ones where he makes out like a bandit).

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:58AM (#2906044)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070627182454/http://www.grant-t...

^60% of divorce settlements favorable to women, 40% even, 10% favorable to men. UK, 2004.

http://www.attorneys.com/legal_center/articles/child_custody...

^10-15% of men have sole custody of children

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120700651883978623.html

^3.6% of alimony recipients are male, 2006

I am not a fountain of sources, so I hope this will do for now.

A fun story illustrating how weird things are getting: http://mensnewsdaily.com/2011/02/27/man-receives-oral-sex-or...

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by yardie on Saturday August 20, 2011 @07:28AM (#2906412)
1. I agree that most divorce proceedings do favor women.

2. As a friend of an attorney who tells me that most of his male clients never seek custody and don't even petition for visitation rights until the CS payments start coming due this is completely inline with our society. I'm sorry, but once the divorce is finished most guys just want to move on with their life, the family they had becomes an encumberment. Most would prefer to be free to start over than continue being reminded of a failed relationship. That's just the way it is.

3. The primary purpose of the act of having sex is reproduction. The courts have already decided that every time you have sex you implicitly agree that a baby might result. It doesn't matter if it's oral, anal, or vaginal if someone gets pregnant out of it you can't back out you've already given consent. Even before reading the article I already knew the outcome, skimming to the bottom confirmed 30-40 years of court cases on the same matter.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by pyre on Saturday August 20, 2011 @10:00AM (#2906647)
Point #3 is not entirely true. The article seemed to imply that the law was all about advocating for the child, instead of pandering to a disagreement between the biological parents at the (possible) expense of the child.

This implies that I may not even need to have sex to be forced into child support payments. For example, what if someone sneaks into my bedroom at night (or maybe we're sharing a hotel room while travelling) and is able to make off with some semen while I sleep? By the legal argument that we must advocate for the child, I would be forced into child support. Sure, I could attempt to seek some sort of relief from the mother for what she did, but that would be completely separate from whether or not I am legally obligated to pay child support for the next 18 years.

Maybe all men should be forced to wear locks on their genitalia lest some crazy woman somewhere decide that they want to force the man to create a child?

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:59PM (#2907222)
There was actually another case I don't have a link to at the moment where a guy passed out drunk at a party and a women he had never met essentially raped him in his sleep. Yup, he was forced to pay child support too.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by rdouble on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:15PM (#2907084)
some crazy woman somewhere decide that they want to force the man to create a child?

The third verse of every other rap song is about this very topic.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by mahyarm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @04:07PM (#2907592)
Imprison the woman for rape and get full custody due to criminal ineligibility of the woman? (And being in prison at the time). Then when she get's out of jail you get child support payments. It sucks to have some stranger's child, but usually women who do this know the man in some way.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @04:38PM (#2907663)
That would require convicting the woman for rape. Good luck with that.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by pagekalisedown on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:35AM (#2905889)
I love children, but as a specie, we've secured our dominant position on this planet a long time ago. There's over 7 billion of us now. If children isn't your thing, why bring some into the world, and risk neglecting them?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:13AM (#2905972)
The main problems are these:

1) Due to social values, we build momentum. If marriage ceases to happen and children cease to be born, 50 years from now we won't have 50 million fewer people- we'll have 1 billion fewer people, and it will take decades to reverse the trend. (made-up numbers, but I hope you take my point)

2) It's not just about protecting the species. We have a tiny bit of a Ponzi scheme going. The young support the old, and as a result graphs like this: http://japanfocus.org/data/fig3.jpg (Japan's population) As a taxpayer, make your blood run cold.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by pagekalisedown on Saturday August 20, 2011 @03:44AM (#2906105)
1) I understand your point, but according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

It only took a decade to go from 6 to 7 billion. We can build up a population in the blink of an eye.

2) Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :) Ponzi scheme or not, people taking the time to establish themselves first means fewer children, but also fewer neglected children.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @03:56AM (#2906124)
Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :)

You say it like it's a silly idea, but not long ago people in America had children expressly for the purpose of helping around the farm, and in Asian cultures there is still an explicit overtone that parents have children so that they have someone to depend upon in old age.

And by 'explicit overtone', I mean your parents say it to your face and you become a social pariah if you abandon your family- at least as best I understand it from my Asian friends.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by mrphoebs on Saturday August 20, 2011 @04:31AM (#2906179)
Agreed, in asia a family unit is not just parents and their children. It involves, grandparents, and great grandparents if they are around. It's not a "you have to take care of me" kind of a deal but something like "family takes care of itself" -> when you have kids, grandparents help out actively in raising them, then you are adults you help your parents, physicall, financially. Families often have assets stowed away as a collective unit.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by jeremyswank on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:13AM (#2905973)
surprisingly enough, 'species' is both the singular and plural form of the word.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by rcthompson on Saturday August 20, 2011 @07:12AM (#2906389)
In what sense are we the dominant species?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:26AM (#2905861)
You can "handle things as a team" without bringing into bring into the equation the full force of a modern judiciary system and a stone-age property rights system.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:23AM (#2905991)
The judiciary system and stone-age property system instill a certain permanence. It is much harder to give everything you've got when the other party can up and walk away whenever they please. Maybe in modern times we have better solutions than a modern judiciary system, but the system is the way it is for a reason.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by mortenjorck on Saturday August 20, 2011 @07:33PM (#2908048)
Would you co-found a company without the full force of a modern judiciary system?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Sunday August 21, 2011 @01:38AM (#2908594)
I wouldn't co-found a company with someone I had an emotional attachment to.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by bbq on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:17AM (#2905842)
"But as I have come to see it, it is more about facing the world as a "team". In larger groups (that is to say, extended family, all composed of marriage links), perhaps even as a "tribe"... think about that."

I agree! Why do those links have to be marital? I'm not sure they have to be. Which is why the we need to be more open.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by janees on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:55AM (#2905930)
because, marital/blood link are more stronger than open/causal links.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:20AM (#2905981)
janees' grammar is terrible, but he's not entirely wrong. We like to think we are above 'foolish' things like being related to people, but as my grandparents have put it, my brothers will always be my brothers. That is one thing that cannot change- and somehow, that is special. Call me base, call me old-fashioned, but I have come to feel that blood ties are not as imaginary as I used to believe.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by rcthompson on Saturday August 20, 2011 @07:18AM (#2906397)
If you want a concrete reason that "blood" ties are non-imaginary, there's kin selection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by mrphoebs on Saturday August 20, 2011 @04:23AM (#2906170)
I think "true love for life" is a very american possibly western fairy tale. In asia it's more like "a partnership in the ups and downs of life" and is centered on creating a solid foundation to raise a happy and prosperous family.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by bbq on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:04AM (#2905815)
Like everything else, it's good to have diversity. Like you say, it is too socially and possibly legally costly to discuss openly other arrangements. The pressures need to relax to allow other lifestyles blossom.

It's not about being able to talk about it on the Internet or with friends. Imagine the hacker who has a business and unusual lifestyle. Can she be open with it without fear of judgment from investors and the community? I like to think she can, but I'm not so sure. Even if so, does that hold on a more general level?

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by aik on Saturday August 20, 2011 @12:53AM (#2905784)
Just curious -- how does this mindset handle having kids that grow up in a loving and positive environment?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by r00fus on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:00AM (#2905802)
Do what they do in other civilized countries like France... allow non-marriage unions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacte_civil_de_solidarité

The union isn't just for same-sex couples, but also for non-standard families like say siblings w.o parents and such... it would be perfect as it eschews traditional mores and keeps the good part of marriages.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by aik on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:17AM (#2905843)
Sorry let me explain -- I'm not talking about a lack of marriage, but lack of a stable union. The incentive to "give up" is so much stronger when you can just leave when (not "if") life's ubiquitous unpredictable and uncontrollable difficulties arise. So naturally there's a much greater chance of not having that positive environment...
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by r00fus on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:32AM (#2905882)
And what I'm saying is that the PACS (the french civil union) is actually a very strong contract, just not bound up with traditional titles and roles like {husband=breadwinner,wife=homemaker}. In fact today, over 95% of civil unions in France are heterosexual couples:

"Although originally intended for same-sex couples, currently in France the majority of couples taking advantage of its law are now heterosexual couples who for one reason or another choose civil union rather than marriage, and that more heterosexual couples are opting for civil union rather than marriage. In fact, this trend was already in place in 2000, with 75% of unions between heterosexual couples (42% the previous years) and 95% in 2009."

If these folks didn't have the stability of an enforceable social contract (and tax benefits), most probably wouldn't marry either.

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by xsmasher on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:05AM (#2905817)
Is marriage a requirement or a guarantor of a loving and positive environment?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:27AM (#2905865)
It is an unrelated topic.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:28AM (#2905868)
Let me clarify- you are saying that children are unrelated to marriage?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by burgerbrain on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:36AM (#2905892)
You know full well what I am saying. The concept of legally binding marriage and a "loving and positive environment" are fundamentally unrelated.

Little Johnny doesn't know or care if the government sanctions his parental figures' relationship. In fact, the only case in which Little Johnny might become aware of the governments involvement is when the resulting legal/social/economic pressure causes a dramatic deterioration of this "loving and positive environment".

Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by sliverstorm on Saturday August 20, 2011 @02:04AM (#2905947)
I suggest you extrapolate just a tad more next time. I may have a good guess at what you are saying, but that doesn't mean you don't need to say it.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by nazgulnarsil on Saturday August 20, 2011 @07:16AM (#2906393)
this happens largely because contract law is ignored by judges whenever contracts violate their ideals. activist judges are a very serious issue that has huge costs for society. corporations are resorting to third party arbitration because enforcement of contracts by the prevailing legal system is not reliable.
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by johnny22 on Saturday August 20, 2011 @01:07PM (#2907069)
activists judges are a serious issue?
Re:Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implicat... by nazgulnarsil on Saturday August 20, 2011 @06:26PM (#2907890)
yes, unreliable enforcement of contract terms discourages investment.