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Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:31PM (#29017180)
I'm not the original author, however, ages ago I invented what's now being called "acoustic camera". (Specifically, the SOTA on the math side for precision, accuracy.)

The resolution is fine enough that with COTS parts, I can record my signature simply by sketching it out with my fingernail on a table.

Every few years I dust this off and play with it, wondering if there's some application or other way to "turn this into money" (an increasing concern in the coming months...<tiny>PLZ HIRE ME</>), but I'm not a "product guy".

I'll answer some questions about the technology, but would really love to know if anyone here has advice on somehow using this achievement to pay rent. :)

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by cameron_b on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:42PM (#29018135)
Videoconferencing applications are implementing this in conjunction with face detection to "steer" wide angle cameras into "talking head" shots.

The current tech is spooky trash, parlor trick-quality from what I've used. Every time we use some of the automatic gizmos in conference rooms, we get tickets to make it stop.

Pick your favorite top video conferencing platform or camera maker and they'll want to improve what they have. The Creepy - "Just works" jump is a big one.

PS., the industry trade show is happening RIGHT NOW at https://www.infocommshow.org/

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by robmiller on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:47PM (#29019987)
I am an acoustics consultant who designs buildings with architects, then sees them through construction. Doors intended to isolate noisy rooms regularly underperform, whether due to manufacturing or installation problems. Lots of fingerpointing when we call it out on project sites, and having a camera show the weaknesses due to the perimeter gasketing, frame, door leaf, or wall construction surrounding the door would provide the necessary visual for contractors to see the problems we are pointing out.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by martyvis on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:30PM (#29022054)
I wonder how many building projects use and engage acoustic engineers (unless sound is specific to the use like for theatres or conference facilities)?

I had the "opportunity" as a patient in a very new hospital wing some 7 years ago for about 13 days. While I had a private room, the door was always open to the walkway, I guess as is normal to allow quick response by medical staff. But at one point I really felt overwhelmed by all the external noise that I could hear from the other rooms in the ward, nurse stations, and so on. I really felt that the hard surfaces and even the angular nature of the floor layout was conspiring against me - almost focussing noise into my room. I imagine given enough data you could show the poorer rest of patients prolonged their recovery period and hence increased bed occupancy and cost to the health system (important in a state run public hospital service that is predominant in Australia).

As such it would be nice to think hospitals, schools, offices would include thorough acoustic assessment to at least allow appropriate mitigation of noise during design (before having invoke more active measures like soft furnishings, etc).

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by robmiller on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:05AM (#29022242)
My response is US-centric, but most hospital projects do have an acoustics consultant involved. Improvements have been made, but not nearly enough. Challenges include the need for sound absorption to be porous, but this is at odds with cleanability. Increased focus has been on patient room doors, which are increasingly sliders. They work well when they're closed, but the challenges include getting a good bottom seal when the threshold has to accommodate beds and equipment being rolled in and out. Hospital equipment manufacturers are also improving the sounds of their equipment, away from the cheap piezo beepers.

Schools very often have acoustics reviews, although more often in cities than rural areas. Classrooms in addition to auditoria, gyms and common areas. Standards exist for those too.

Office buildings are hit or miss. The developer may hire us for a base building review. Tenants' architects hire us as they design their workplaces. There's a lot of push and pull to find a balance of the modern open ceiling industrial aesthetic and glass conference rooms with reasonable acoustical goals.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by cameron_b on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:42AM (#29025384)
Some, but Not enough

Working in conference rooms, people far too often are concerned about the look ( big windows, natural light, great table ) and less concerned about acoustics than would be reasonable. In my experience, Architects think people just sit around the table, and chat.

I once had a brand new office upfit project with a "flagship room" that was a large flex space, (could be a board meeting, could be a hackathon). There were three sides of glass, a concrete floor and metal ceiling structure. If you clapped in the room, it could be heard for 1.5 seconds as it bounced across all those surfaces before decaying.

My bosses were furious at the microphone quality, the installer was unhelpful and bailed on us. We hired a consultant to perform an evaluation and he told us that the room was awful, with lots of numbers ( figures for acoustic reverberation at different frequencies ) and told us of certain products that could help in those ranges.

It is a lot easier to design rooms with acoustic features than it is to retrofit them in terrible sounding rooms.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:26PM (#29021223)
I think you're talking about a different problem, though that one could also be helped with the right tool.

After setting up the array, once could answer questions like "where is that darn squeak coming from!", and even characterize the undesirable noise, both spatially and spectrally. You could also measure how effective noise isolation materials are, but I don't see what the spatial information gets you.

However, if weaknesses due to "perimeter gasketing, frame, door leaf, or wall construction" result in some sort of localized noise, then a system like this would certainly pinpoint it.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by robmiller on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:22PM (#29021594)
Yes, this is in reference to noise passing through a door that is localizable. Typically we would play pink noise (broadband, equal energy per octave band) on one side and listen for "hotspots" on the quiet side. I would wonder about the precision of being able to tell in the image the contribution of the door frame from the perimeter gasketing.

Acoustic cameras like from Noiseless Acoustics are on the market though they seem to be marketed to industrial customers. There are similar mapping systems using a scanning mic like from Soft dB.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:08PM (#29021923)
Ah! In that case yeah, this tech could possibly help. At least, I'd love to give it a shot! (I hope you don't mind an email from me later...)

It's sensitive enough to noise that I can pick up (and locate) the air vents in a room, even when the sound is at the threshold of hearing. Noise (pink and white), and even more so MLS (maximum length sequence) really "jumps out" (it's very obvious), well below my threshold of hearing.

There's so many interesting areas of research I've never had the time/money to fully investigate. I'd love to play with an "active" system, not just "passive", with a goal of experimentally finding modes of resonance of objects in a room.

I bet once can tell the relative contribution to noise of one physical object over another, but I don't know enough about construction to know if one would be able to separate the door frame from the perimeter gasketing. You do need line of sight for it to work. At the least, you'd have a way to quantify the sound leak, with numbers and reproducibility.

FWIW the Noiseless Acoustics camera costs ~$18k(!)

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by joshmarlow on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @04:24PM (#29018646)
I have absolutely no knowledge about this domain, so this idea 1) might not be viable and 2) is not a full developed product idea - but I thought it would be fun to get your thoughts.

Could you put some sound sensors inside of some mechanical structure and use the acoustics to figure out where some physical contact is happening on the outside of the structure?

Specific Application: prosthetics devices that can - with only a few acoustic sensors - determine where the 'touch' was on the outside of the device.

If viable, it may be similarly useful for robots - or any machine in general - that needs a low-hardware (and thus low cost) method of getting course tactile information around it's boundary.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by anitil on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:01PM (#29021891)
I would suggest asset protection. I used to work for a company (Droneshield) that would provide protection from drone-based sabotage/intelligence gathering/smuggling.

It's a big field, but if you could, for instance, set up an alert for when a noise source crosses a property border, or when something that sounds like a human comes within x meters of a particular building, I think that would be valuable. I'm no longer there, but happy to talk if you're interested.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:31PM (#29022064)
This sort of tech was really good at tracking drones. Neat thing about drones is they put off so much waste audio, rich with information.

I know very little about drones, but, in a demo I made years ago (trying to convince someone to give me money for using this in a drone defense product), I was able to "fingerprint" different drone models, even sometimes distinguish between two different drones of the same model. As long as there's line of sight, you can sometimes "see", in the data, slight changes in the speed of the propeller, as well as the rough "shape" of the drone itself.

But for all those applications, even though I love sound, I always think to myself.... "wouldn't a pair of cheap cameras do this better?" :)

> no longer there, but happy to talk if you're interested.

Thanks!

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by anitil on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:46PM (#29022162)
> "wouldn't a pair of cheap cameras do this better?"

That's part of where they've gone (though the cameras are far from cheap) as well as RF, with some AI magic sprinkled on top.

I wouldn't suggest doing drone defense, but smaller-scale asset protection might be more approachable. There's what, 3000 local governments in the US? I'm sure a lot of them have had a tractor stolen from a road construction site. Or maybe if they lease their equipment you could sell a solution to the leasing company.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by jbay808 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:01PM (#29019649)
It would be great if I could point something at a noisy machine and find out precisely which panel is loose and vibrating!
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @06:14PM (#29019757)
Really? Would it be "great" enough that you'd pay for such a device? If so how much? (would love to continue over email)
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by schiffern on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:13PM (#29020223)
Looks like it's found use in automotive applications for tracking down NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C18AA_nlQN8

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by hetspookjee on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:16PM (#29020258)
I’d definitely pay for it. Though I’d use it outdoors in the woods to see where birds and other critters are hiding. Though I reckon the noise will pose a challenge.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by jbay808 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @11:22PM (#29022009)
Yes. Email sent ;)
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by ZeikJT on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:25PM (#29027868)
There was a thread on here a while back where people would set up cameras and be able to make a motion image showing what parts moved with a regular frequency. Was being used at factories to determine points of failure via vibration. Can't find the thread now though.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by ZeikJT on Thursday October 28, 2021 @02:53PM (#29029973)
Aha, it was a video by Steve Mould: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEoc0YoALt0
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by paulirwin on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @02:39PM (#29017279)
Not saying it's exactly the same thing, as I don't think a video overlay was involved, but I know someone that got their PhD in this area in the 1970s and had a long career working for a U.S. military contractor doing this. The U.S. military has a significant interest in acoustic beamforming, both in the air and underwater, for obvious reasons.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:09PM (#29017671)
Oh absolutely! Sorry, I was excited in my typing. It's not every day you see "your baby" on HN :) Everything I built was on the shoulders of giants, and lol, I didn't invent beamforming itself (of course).

The problem I have trying to find the niche application is that there's not much (at least, that I could think of) where you can have high quality audio data, but where a simple camera wouldn't work. Also, full imaging (as opposed to just tracking the largest/loudest source via TDOA) is quite different math, stupendously more computationally intensive.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by R0b0t1 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @03:14PM (#29017737)
Industrial automation monitoring is a major commercial application. I was going to look at https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/uma-16-... for doing it. Do you know what limits of detection you could get, and on what equipment?

Monitoring structural vibrations is also useful, and I think is an ongoing research area. I mention this because it's possible to sell it and research it at the same time.

What about synchronized cameras in different locations?

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by _trampeltier on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:51PM (#29019558)
In industrial maintenace are such cameras in use to find air leaks in pneumatic. The model from Fluke is something like 20k USD. Because of this super high price, I don't know anybody who has a such model. So ask another company, if they are interested.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by _spduchamp on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:16PM (#29019252)
You want to pay the rent? Don't make a product, make a service, mainly, "WHERE IS THAT ANNOYING SOUND COMING FROM? SERVICE". People will pay you to locate sources of irritating sounds.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by rapjr9 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:33PM (#29020426)
I use handheld sound amplitude meters and spectrogram software on smartphones to track down sounds I want to eliminate. This is often for musical purposes, but also for annoying sounds. An amplitude meter can be useful for finding the source of a sound, but lower frequency sounds are not as directional, and standing waves in rooms can make a sound source appear to come from somewhere other than the source (though perhaps moving a sound camera around physically could help eliminate this ambiguity?) The spectrogram can provide evidence of a specific periodicity or frequency range that can help identify a source. However these tools while useful are not sufficient all the time and are certainly not quick to use. I've often thought it would be really useful to have something like a gunshot detector for ordinary sounds, to be able to locate sounds both indoors and outdoors. It would help in answering questions like "is that sound a bear/dog raiding my trash?", "is the fan failing in my air purifier?", "is my air conditioner rattling something nearby?", "is my fridge transmitting a low level hum throughout the house?", "is that engine noise a truck pulling up to my house or a truck climbing a hill on the nearby highway?", all problems I have actually faced. Not sure if a sonic camera can deal well with low frequency sounds, but it would certainly make it easier to deal with higher frequency sources of noises. I'd buy one on impulse for $100, with some consideration of features at $300.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by genewitch on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @08:41PM (#29020949)
Use this to find a cricket indoors. I defy you.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:24PM (#29019327)
I have "inverse aptitude" at knowing what should be a product. :) Never trust me to know what would sell or not. In fact, "bet against whatever I think". ;)

In my ideal (and in the best jobs I've had in the past), someone finds me (or I find someone) who I can share a list of "cool things I've figured out how to do, but don't know the usefulness of", and that person then tells me what to build.

For your "where is that annoying sound coming from?" service, what sort of scale do you imagine, and what form factor?

A handheld consumer device with a range of ~10m which points in the direction of the loudest thing?

How much would you pay for such a device? (would love your thoughts in email)

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by abraae on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @07:34PM (#29020439)
A "squid game"-style kids game.

Kids must tiptoe across in front of the camera.

If they make any noise, the camera uses a powered gimbal to aim a hose at them and squirt them with water.

And a terrifying siren goes off.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by wpietri on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:11PM (#29021137)
How precise can I make it? And how do I think about optimal microphone layout?

I've been considering putting multiple microphones on one side of the house to track birds. I mainly want to isolate the audio for recognition. But setting up a PTZ camera to get good shots would be even cooler.

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @09:32PM (#29021269)
> multiple microphones on one side of the house to track birds.

This was one of my first at home demos! Tracking birds and cars. If you want to get started DIY and figuring it out yourself, try about 5 microphones, each 1m apart. The trick is having all the mics in line of sight to the object in question. Otherwise you're left with doing an "intersection of angles" method, which is much simpler, but horrible in terms of precision.

In a later demo I used a PTZ laser pointer to track the moving sound sources, so, it's at least possible!

Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by wpietri on Thursday October 28, 2021 @03:23PM (#29030457)
Thanks! And do you have suggestions about how to think about extracting relatively pure sound from that point? It seems intuitive to me that it's doable, and I'm sure there must be a lot of work already done, but I'm clearly not googling the right terms.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by ggm on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:04PM (#29021492)
sound tracking + laser == mosquito zapper
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by socatacos on Thursday October 28, 2021 @12:37PM (#29028013)
I have seen a similar product used in automotive acoustic wind tunnels to help identify the locations of acoustic hot spots in the flow around a car.
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by grayfaced on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @10:50PM (#29021811)
What kind of range/sensitivity could you get outdoors? Maybe spotting deer for hunters. (caveat I'm not a hunter)
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by nyanpasu64 on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:05PM (#29019127)
How does this compare with commercial ultrasonic flaw detection systems for physical objects?
Re:DIY Acoustic Camera by loxias on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @05:17PM (#29019257)
No idea! For a few month's stipend and cost of ultrasonic parts, I can find out for you. :)