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Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by kamkazemoose on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:39PM (#28868175)
Say you are invited to your friends apartment in an apartment building, but none of the apartments have locks. So you decide to open up some other random apartments and look through their things, who is responsible?
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by jerf on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:04PM (#28868541)
Analogies are never helpful for things like this.

We don't need to reach for analogies to observe that while the theoretical ideal is to report it after just one false access, that no significant damage was done by accessing just a few more via human manipulation of the browser URL, with no recording or sharing of the results. From a human perspective, no damage was done.

Whether that legally crosses a line involves a whole lot of details that few, if any people here, will be able to speak to, because of the complication of the law, and HN's conclusion as to the legality is of marginal interest even if someone competent were to give an opinion.

We can speak to the fact that even if it does technically cross a line, a prosecutor really ought to use their discretion to not prosecute since nobody was hurt. We can say that because that's just an opinion. I expect we don't have very many people here who actually want the book thrown here (though, as always, enough read this that it's probably non-zero).

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by kelnos on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:47PM (#28869864)
I don't think quantifiable significant damage should be the bar we use, though that should act to moderate the consequences.

OP admitted to continue changing URLs in order to check out what plans other companies were getting and what they cost. That means OP downloaded lists of employee names, ages, SSNs, and other data. If I were an employee at one of these other companies, I'd be pissed at OP for that. I'd be even more pissed at the people who built the marketplace website for making the rookie security mistake that allowed it, but it's absolutely not ok to download other people's information when you shouldn't have access to it, and use that to your own advantage.

Sure, I don't think this is something that should be prosecuted as a CFAA violation with big fines and jail time. That's not a proportionate response. But I also don't think we should signal that it's ok to look at (and use!) other people's data just because someone else forgot to lock it up properly. I think, for example, something on the level of a parking ticket would be appropriate here.

If OP had changed the URL once, found the vulnerability, and then immediately closed the page and reported the problem, I would see nothing bad in what they did. But they didn't merely do that, and IMO crossed the line in their subsequent actions.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by mcguire on Thursday October 14, 2021 @05:12PM (#28870185)
There's no evidence from the original comment that anyone invoked any legal lines. Instead, they seem to be upset that the person they reported the incident to asked them questions about exactly what they did rather than being effusively grateful.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by jerf on Thursday October 14, 2021 @09:17PM (#28872703)
I added it, anticipating future comments.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by Miner49er on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:42PM (#28868223)
That's not even close to the same analogy though. This would be like knocking on the door, asking if you can come in, and the person living there letting you in. Then getting mad about it later even though they let you in.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by BizarroLand on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:18PM (#28869465)
More like your friend let you into their apartment but then got upset that you went into the dining room when they only intended for you to go into the living room.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by kelnos on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:48PM (#28869884)
No, this is more like if you asked the landlord to let you in, and then they did, without the permission of the tenant. The tenant would completely be within their rights to be angry about that. Both at you and the landlord.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by ModernMech on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:00PM (#28868475)
I think that's a valid response if the person letting you in wasn't expecting you and didn't want you there. Like, what are you doing knocking on random doors and going into random places just to look around? That's not honest behavior. Honest behavior is that if you know you're not supposed to have access to a thing, you shouldn't obtain access to the thing even if you technically can. I think it's pretty clear that you shouldn't have access to another company's healthcare plans. The first one is a mistake, maybe. The subsequent browsing and comparison shopping of restricted materials is definitely not okay though, and the harsh, suspicious response was warranted.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by jaywalk on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:45PM (#28869027)
>if the person letting you in wasn't expecting you and didn't want you there.

Then they shouldn't have let you in. How are you completely absolving them of responsibility when all they had to do was say "Who the hell are you? No, you can't come in."

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by ModernMech on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:06PM (#28869294)
Well, to go with the analogy more: I leave my door unlocked because I'm expecting someone. There's a knock at my door and I yell "Come in" without looking at who is at the door. Not an unreasonable thing, happens all the time. When I finally look, I find you in my house, going through all of my things, for no reason other than you wanted to gain insight on my financial situation.

Do I bear responsibility for letting you in? Yes. Should you be there? No. Should you have knocked on the door? No. Should you have tried the same at my neighbor's house and every house on my block? No. In this metaphor and in the original context, everyone is acting with honest intent except the actor knowingly trying to access obviously confidential documents.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by MangezBien on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:09PM (#28869332)
It doesn't mean I am there illegally though. Maybe I am there for some other reason and I thought you wanted to to let me in.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by ModernMech on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:22PM (#28869525)
No one said anything about legality. I'm still going to yell at you to gtfo and never come back again, and I don't see why it would be surprising that I would.

Let's drop the metaphor. The original story was that someone accessed a number of documents they weren't supposed to but technically could, and the question was whether or not that it was reasonable that the owners of the documents were upset with that.

I argue there was good reason to be upset given the facts on the ground. In this particular situation, the original poster was there to access their own document. Having accessed someone else's document, that would be the point at which the behavior crosses from legitimate to illegitimate if it continues. Leaving at that point would be one appropriate response. But systematically going through a number of different documents goes beyond a mistake and into the realm of intentionally exploiting this security issue for unauthorized purposes. That's when it crosses from "honest mistake" to "dishonest exploitation".

I have no idea about the illegality of the issue. But the fact is plain that this person was not the intended recipient of the documents, they knew they weren't the intended recipient, and then after realizing the nature of the exploit, they continued to use it.

This is not the same as knocking on a door for a legitimate reason, being let in, and then the person inside being mad you're there. It's knocking on a door for no reason or a malicious reason, knowingly doing something inside the resident doesn't want you to do, and then wondering why they are mad at you.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by MangezBien on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:31PM (#28869646)
The only person to be upset at is the one who didn't put access control on the site. That was a publically available endpoint. The better analogy is putting something private on a public bulletin board and being mad if someone read something you didn't want them to.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by ModernMech on Thursday October 14, 2021 @06:21PM (#28870973)
A billboard is a broadcast message though, whereas an HTTP request is more like a back and forth exchange between two participants. So I think the original knock->response->enter is a better metaphor.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by jaywalk on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:21PM (#28869511)
You let me in knowing exactly who I was. You showed me some stuff I wanted to see, but sitting right next to it, out in the open, was stuff you didn't want me to see. All I had to do was look somewhere other than where you were pointing, and I did that. And then you got mad at me for looking at the stuff and called the police.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by ModernMech on Thursday October 14, 2021 @06:32PM (#28871071)
> All I had to do was look somewhere other than where you were pointing, and I did that.

The way you phrase this makes it seem like accessing the documents was a mistake. Maybe the first one was, but I think the thing you are missing about the OP's story is that the behavior was repeated. I think the first instance was arguably okay. But subsequent access with the knowledge that what they were accessing was not intended for them is in my eyes beyond a mere misunderstanding.

You also have to remember that having physical or digital access to a thing is not the same as having permission to view the thing. For example, if a "Top Secret" document is delivered to your house with your name and address attached to it, if you read it without the appropriate clearance you will still be in trouble. The legality of such a thing is well established in that case, but the principle is the same: even though you have access to a thing and all you have to do is move your eyes in some direction to see it, the act of seeing it is still at minimum an ethical breach (why are you looking at things that you know don't belong to you?).

I guess this is the fundamental philosophical and ethical question: do you believe you are entitled to know any information as long as you have the technical ability to physically or digitally access that information? What if I have medical records on a screen in a room you are in, and all you have to do is move your eyes over to see my most personal info? Are you entitled to read that information because it's visible to you? Or do you think you owe it to others not breach their privacy even though you have the ability to do so? Would you be mad if someone violated your privacy, and then retorted with "well you should have a had implemented some better technology to prevent me from moving my eyes in that direction"? I guess in that scenario you would have to blame yourself and your technological abilities, and not the person violating your privacy.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by pwillia7 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:46PM (#28868280)
I was thinking of a similar analogy but I don't think it holds.

The right analogy would be if I was in the apartment complex and I said to a door not mine "I'm home open up!" If the door opened and I did it intentionally, am I liable?

I still feel like yes but since you have to request the document and receive it I think it's different than just checking locks.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by Keyframe on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:06PM (#28868571)
I think we're all gronw-ups here and don't need analogies here.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by fshbbdssbbgdd on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:40PM (#28868973)
People of all ages suffer from confirmation bias. Analogies can be useful because they allow someone to appreciate the logic of an argument while temporarily dissociating from strongly-held opinions. After the framing moves back to the question under debate, the logic might stick. At least all parties might understand everyone’s perspective better after a few analogies are exchanged.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by Talanes on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:30PM (#28869629)
The analogies in this thread are mostly only furthering confirmation bias.

Because any physical analogy is such a poor representation of how a website actually works, everyone just cherry-picks the analogy that demonstrates the logic they believe should apply, and then tries to constrain the argument to that logic via analogy.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by sodality2 on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:19PM (#28869471)
Not if everyone constantly shifts the analogy so their argument still works ;)
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by bee_rider on Thursday October 14, 2021 @04:42PM (#28869794)
Indeed -- it is like if arguments were things to transport, and analogies were cars... wait, no, they are railroad cars.

So the argument is a heist occurring on a train, so we've got the thing that we're trying to heist (which would be our point) and then we're shifting it from one car to another. And some of the analogies here are clearly like passenger coaches, but others are more like those... coal transporting car, whatever they are called... and at some point we move to the inappropriate railroad car and drop the point in the coal which obscures it.

Anyway, the point is that at some point you really just hope that some conventional train robbers will show up and derail the whole thing because it has gotten too convoluted to follow.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by blisse on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:42PM (#28868222)
A closer analogy might be if none of the apartments had doors, would you be allowed to step inside.
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by frumper on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:41PM (#28868205)
the web isn't a collection of personal apartments
Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by the_arun on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:44PM (#28868247)
I think in this example both are equally responsible:

1. People who kept their doors unlocked

2. Person who randomly entered doors & found things.

We need to take care of security of our properties, though stealing is wrong.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by klyrs on Thursday October 14, 2021 @03:08PM (#28868596)
Nope, opening an unlocked door is still considered break&enter. AFAIK, the "unlocked door" can even be a beaded curtain. Turns out that the legal definition of "break" in this context is extremely old and doesn't correspond to lay usage anymore.

But I think that a better analogy would be asking the apartment manager to see your payment history and getting handed the entire apartment building's ledger.

Re:Governor vows criminal prosecution of reporter who found ... by dzhiurgis on Thursday October 14, 2021 @02:43PM (#28868232)
More like - you go to supermarket bathroom, checking each stall and find one person is pooping without doors locked