News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @07:49PM (#2884858)
Something I've never understood from one example from that talk: If it's your word in court vs. the police officer's regarding an unrecorded conversation, how exactly does not talking help you? In the example (linked below), the police officer lied in court, saying that the defendant admitted to placing a hand on the plaintiff when the officer first approached the defendant. How does being silent help you in that example? The officer could still lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=playe...

Re:False confessions by joe_the_user on Sunday August 14, 2011 @10:40PM (#2885204)
Even if you are dealing with someone willing to lie about the situation, not talking helps you a lot because it gives them less material to work with. If they have to make something up whole-cloth, there's a higher chance that they'll make something up that couldn't possibly have happened. If they have your description of what really happened, they only have to alter a few details.
Re:False confessions by lukesandberg on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:08PM (#2884884)
I don't think much can help you if you are dealing with an officer who is willing to lie and falsify evidence in order to convict you. But the key detail is that its much more likely that an officer (or any person) will misremember something you said or take it out of context if you actually said anything at all.

By not talking you prevent this problem entirely because no one will accidentally forget or take out of context that fact that you never said anything at all.

Re:False confessions by Duff on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:13PM (#2884894)
"Lie" in the eye of the beholder.

To the cop, stating that you touched someone means that you've opened the door -- it's a thread connecting your story to the plaintiff's. Since you are probably not routinely interrogated, your body language may reinforce that thought process as well.

Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:35PM (#2884934)
In the example, the cop testifies that when he first approached the defendant, the defendant admitted to placing his hand on the plaintiff's throat, but only as a joke. The defendant claimed that he never said anything of the sort to the cop. It was the cop's and plaintiff's word against the defendant's word, and the defendant was found guilty. How would it have helped if the defendant had said nothing to the cop? The cop lied about him talking.

To me, the words of a cop and a plaintiff are "reasonably doubtful," but I guess not. Anyway, my point is that in this example, the cop lied about what the defendant said.

Re:False confessions by StavrosK on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:26PM (#2885051)
It's harder for the officer to lie and say that you said something when you refused to say anything.

It's easier to just "slip" something in a conversation if you're talking to him in the first place.

Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:54PM (#2885116)
How so? If your interaction with the cop wasn't recorded, even if you started out by saying "I choose to remain silent" and never said another word, the cop can easily testify that you said something. I don't see how it's "easier" to change an actual conversation than it is to completely fabricate one.
Re:False confessions by StavrosK on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:57PM (#2885120)
> I don't see how it's "easier" to change an actual conversation than it is to completely fabricate one.

It's easier because, when you fabricate an entire conversation rather than one sentence, you have to make up more things.

That's the purely technical argument. There are also psychological considerations on the part of the officer, people are more likely to rationalize making up one little thing than making up an entire conversation.

Re:False confessions by stretchwithme on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:32AM (#2885457)
Yes, they can ask you all kinds of questions about what you said and make you appear quite talkative.

Say nothing and you can truthfully say repeatedly that you said nothing. You'll be able to consistently tell the truth on the stand without having to explain any of your statements, statements that the prosecution will attempt to twist into incriminating statements.

Of course, if you do the same to the prosecutor before trial, the chances of you making it to trial go down. Prosecutors like to win their cases.

Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:48AM (#2886159)
Only in the very technical, abstract sense. Interrogations, testimony and memories are about psychology, what has actually happened is only superficially related. When you have a long conversation with someone, it's easy for them to remember things you didn't say because they think they heard them. Watch the video linked above, for the example about the story the guy read to the audience. This is exactly what happens to everybody - I myself thought I was smarter than that, but I'm really stupid and stubborn like that and it took me at least 10 times being proven wrong before I internalized that no, the things I think I see and hear and remember are quite likely to be different from what actually happened (in criminal psychology and evidence classes, this was).

Anyway yes it's easier to change a conversation than to fabricate one; because "changing" can mean many things - intentionally lying is the least common occurrence, simple "neural" errors happen a lot more often.

Re:False confessions by a3camero on Monday August 15, 2011 @04:08PM (#2888442)
You don't know ahead of time what's going to happen. That's the key here.

Maybe they'll lie (probably not that common), or maybe what you said will somehow implicate you in a crime, or maybe...? That's why it's important. It's not after the fact knowing the police lied but beforehand when you don't know how things will play out that remaining silent is important.

Re:False confessions by j_baker on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:53AM (#2885520)
How does not being silent help you? Talking to them provides no benefit to you and gives the police opportunity to make you slip up. There's no upside to talking to the police and a lot of potential drawbacks.
Re:False confessions by spodek on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:51PM (#2885109)
"how exactly does not talking help you?"

You still communicate. You speak through your lawyer.

Re:False confessions by InclinedPlane on Sunday August 14, 2011 @10:22PM (#2885166)
If you're extra paranoid just print out a card that says "as a policy I do not speak to the police except through a lawyer". Then you can present it to the police as necessary and use it as evidence if they attempt to claim you confessed something to them without a lawyer present.
Re:False confessions by rdtsc on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:44AM (#2885490)
Be _very_ careful pulling out your card. Not responding verbally and reaching into your pocket might get your killed if the cop thinks he sees you reaching for a gun.
Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:52AM (#2886164)
There is no difference between saying that and having it on a card. Plus if it's on a card it's going to have been taken away from you when you were booked, or you may not be allowed to take it, or whatever. Or it may be used against you in another way, as most physical things are. Just repeat the same sentence and don't try to out-smart police and prosecutors with technical tricks.

(from reading discussions like this one on computer-oriented websites I have come to believe that nerds are especially easy to frame by a police man who recognizes a nerds innate desire to outsmart others, and to show it off. Look at where it got Hans Reiser).

Re:False confessions by tspiteri on Monday August 15, 2011 @10:18AM (#2886977)
(from reading discussions like this one on computer-oriented websites I have come to believe that nerds are especially easy to frame by a police man who recognizes a nerds innate desire to outsmart others, and to show it off. Look at where it got Hans Reiser).

I though framing someone means making it look like they did something when they didn't. As far as I know, Hans Reiser showed the police where he buried the body; how can you say he was framed?

Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @11:13AM (#2887213)
By 'frame' I meant 'manipulated into saying things', not necessarily things that aren't true, just that they didn't mean to say. Maybe it's not a 100% correct use of the word, I don't know.

What I meant was - Hans Reiser had a whole story pre-fabricated that, I assume, was internally consistent, but he relied a bit too much on that abstract property of the story in his defense (not that I know details of the case, just what I read about and remember from the news reportings on the case and the trial - I'm sure there is more nuance to that story than what I'm presenting here).