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Re:False confessions by Duff on Sunday August 14, 2011 @06:36PM (#2884693)
Rule #1: Don't talk to the police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

You're better off taking the beating.

Re:False confessions by SoftwareMaven on Sunday August 14, 2011 @07:03PM (#2884762)
And it's not "Don't talk to the police if you have nothing to hide". Unfortunately, you are always better off to not talk to the police.
Re:False confessions by eru on Monday August 15, 2011 @07:42PM (#2889167)
In America. I wonder about the situation in other legal systems.
Re:False confessions by tzs on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:54AM (#2886166)
You are standing at the end of the block. You hear a woman scream "help! he's taking my baby!", and look up to see two men push a woman violently to the ground, snatch a baby from a stroller, jump into a car, and drive up the street in your direction.

They reach the intersection, where you get a good look at the men as they turn the corner. The drive halfway down the block, and turn into a driveway, pull into the garage at that house, and close the garage door, and then come out with the baby, and get into a car that was waiting in the driveway, and leave nonchalantly. You recognize the make and model of the car and are even able to read the license plate and memorize it.

You are the only witness to this part of their getaway.

The police quickly come, and ask you if you saw them men and were they went.

Are you REALLY going to say nothing? Or tell them you won't say anything without your lawyer present?

Re:False confessions by generalk on Monday August 15, 2011 @06:53AM (#2886254)
Did you watch the video?

Most of the time you'll talk to the police and tell them everything you saw and that's that. It's not likely the police will target you, but that's cold comfort if you somehow end up on the wrong end of a police investigation, which is the point of the video.

You sound smart, what are possible alternatives here? Call in an anonymous tip maybe, or describe exactly what you saw, then refuse further communication without counsel present.

Re:False confessions by JFPetersen on Monday August 15, 2011 @06:26PM (#2888978)
Or maybe you find a pipe bomb in a crowded area and decide to alert the police & help evacuate the area. Nothing could go wrong there, you're only trying to save lives. Much like the above posited scenario, how could anyone see you as anything other than a hero?

Look, I'll admit I'm biased (I'm a criminal defense attorney.) That said, you never know which good, wholesome, moral conversation that you have with the police will turn you from a heroic savior into a criminal suspect.

(For what it's worth, I'd speak to the police in your scenario. That said, I wouldn't fault anyone for not doing so.)

Re:False confessions by blasdel on Monday August 15, 2011 @11:22PM (#2889701)
Re:False confessions by furyg3 on Monday August 15, 2011 @11:32AM (#2887283)
Reporting a crime is a bit different than being questioned for one, but the point still stands that by talking to a police officer you are potentially risking a lot, and should take the situation very seriously.

"Which direction did they go?!?" "Which house is on fire?!" "Does he have a gun?!" are very different questions (with different moral obligations) than "What are you doing in this neighborhood so late at night?" "Do you live around here?" "Is this your car?"

Non-urgent questions and statements should be given in the presence of an attorney, recorded, and preferably on the condition of immunity :)

Re:False confessions by Duff on Monday August 15, 2011 @08:15AM (#2886500)
In that scenario, you have a moral and legal obligation to report the crime. So you meet that obligation by giving the appropriate authorities the information they need, then leave.
Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @07:49PM (#2884858)
Something I've never understood from one example from that talk: If it's your word in court vs. the police officer's regarding an unrecorded conversation, how exactly does not talking help you? In the example (linked below), the police officer lied in court, saying that the defendant admitted to placing a hand on the plaintiff when the officer first approached the defendant. How does being silent help you in that example? The officer could still lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=playe...

Re:False confessions by joe_the_user on Sunday August 14, 2011 @10:40PM (#2885204)
Even if you are dealing with someone willing to lie about the situation, not talking helps you a lot because it gives them less material to work with. If they have to make something up whole-cloth, there's a higher chance that they'll make something up that couldn't possibly have happened. If they have your description of what really happened, they only have to alter a few details.
Re:False confessions by lukesandberg on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:08PM (#2884884)
I don't think much can help you if you are dealing with an officer who is willing to lie and falsify evidence in order to convict you. But the key detail is that its much more likely that an officer (or any person) will misremember something you said or take it out of context if you actually said anything at all.

By not talking you prevent this problem entirely because no one will accidentally forget or take out of context that fact that you never said anything at all.

Re:False confessions by Duff on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:13PM (#2884894)
"Lie" in the eye of the beholder.

To the cop, stating that you touched someone means that you've opened the door -- it's a thread connecting your story to the plaintiff's. Since you are probably not routinely interrogated, your body language may reinforce that thought process as well.

Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @08:35PM (#2884934)
In the example, the cop testifies that when he first approached the defendant, the defendant admitted to placing his hand on the plaintiff's throat, but only as a joke. The defendant claimed that he never said anything of the sort to the cop. It was the cop's and plaintiff's word against the defendant's word, and the defendant was found guilty. How would it have helped if the defendant had said nothing to the cop? The cop lied about him talking.

To me, the words of a cop and a plaintiff are "reasonably doubtful," but I guess not. Anyway, my point is that in this example, the cop lied about what the defendant said.

Re:False confessions by StavrosK on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:26PM (#2885051)
It's harder for the officer to lie and say that you said something when you refused to say anything.

It's easier to just "slip" something in a conversation if you're talking to him in the first place.

Re:False confessions by baddox on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:54PM (#2885116)
How so? If your interaction with the cop wasn't recorded, even if you started out by saying "I choose to remain silent" and never said another word, the cop can easily testify that you said something. I don't see how it's "easier" to change an actual conversation than it is to completely fabricate one.
Re:False confessions by StavrosK on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:57PM (#2885120)
> I don't see how it's "easier" to change an actual conversation than it is to completely fabricate one.

It's easier because, when you fabricate an entire conversation rather than one sentence, you have to make up more things.

That's the purely technical argument. There are also psychological considerations on the part of the officer, people are more likely to rationalize making up one little thing than making up an entire conversation.

Re:False confessions by stretchwithme on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:32AM (#2885457)
Yes, they can ask you all kinds of questions about what you said and make you appear quite talkative.

Say nothing and you can truthfully say repeatedly that you said nothing. You'll be able to consistently tell the truth on the stand without having to explain any of your statements, statements that the prosecution will attempt to twist into incriminating statements.

Of course, if you do the same to the prosecutor before trial, the chances of you making it to trial go down. Prosecutors like to win their cases.

Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:48AM (#2886159)
Only in the very technical, abstract sense. Interrogations, testimony and memories are about psychology, what has actually happened is only superficially related. When you have a long conversation with someone, it's easy for them to remember things you didn't say because they think they heard them. Watch the video linked above, for the example about the story the guy read to the audience. This is exactly what happens to everybody - I myself thought I was smarter than that, but I'm really stupid and stubborn like that and it took me at least 10 times being proven wrong before I internalized that no, the things I think I see and hear and remember are quite likely to be different from what actually happened (in criminal psychology and evidence classes, this was).

Anyway yes it's easier to change a conversation than to fabricate one; because "changing" can mean many things - intentionally lying is the least common occurrence, simple "neural" errors happen a lot more often.

Re:False confessions by a3camero on Monday August 15, 2011 @04:08PM (#2888442)
You don't know ahead of time what's going to happen. That's the key here.

Maybe they'll lie (probably not that common), or maybe what you said will somehow implicate you in a crime, or maybe...? That's why it's important. It's not after the fact knowing the police lied but beforehand when you don't know how things will play out that remaining silent is important.

Re:False confessions by j_baker on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:53AM (#2885520)
How does not being silent help you? Talking to them provides no benefit to you and gives the police opportunity to make you slip up. There's no upside to talking to the police and a lot of potential drawbacks.
Re:False confessions by spodek on Sunday August 14, 2011 @09:51PM (#2885109)
"how exactly does not talking help you?"

You still communicate. You speak through your lawyer.

Re:False confessions by InclinedPlane on Sunday August 14, 2011 @10:22PM (#2885166)
If you're extra paranoid just print out a card that says "as a policy I do not speak to the police except through a lawyer". Then you can present it to the police as necessary and use it as evidence if they attempt to claim you confessed something to them without a lawyer present.
Re:False confessions by rdtsc on Monday August 15, 2011 @12:44AM (#2885490)
Be _very_ careful pulling out your card. Not responding verbally and reaching into your pocket might get your killed if the cop thinks he sees you reaching for a gun.
Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:52AM (#2886164)
There is no difference between saying that and having it on a card. Plus if it's on a card it's going to have been taken away from you when you were booked, or you may not be allowed to take it, or whatever. Or it may be used against you in another way, as most physical things are. Just repeat the same sentence and don't try to out-smart police and prosecutors with technical tricks.

(from reading discussions like this one on computer-oriented websites I have come to believe that nerds are especially easy to frame by a police man who recognizes a nerds innate desire to outsmart others, and to show it off. Look at where it got Hans Reiser).

Re:False confessions by tspiteri on Monday August 15, 2011 @10:18AM (#2886977)
(from reading discussions like this one on computer-oriented websites I have come to believe that nerds are especially easy to frame by a police man who recognizes a nerds innate desire to outsmart others, and to show it off. Look at where it got Hans Reiser).

I though framing someone means making it look like they did something when they didn't. As far as I know, Hans Reiser showed the police where he buried the body; how can you say he was framed?

Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @11:13AM (#2887213)
By 'frame' I meant 'manipulated into saying things', not necessarily things that aren't true, just that they didn't mean to say. Maybe it's not a 100% correct use of the word, I don't know.

What I meant was - Hans Reiser had a whole story pre-fabricated that, I assume, was internally consistent, but he relied a bit too much on that abstract property of the story in his defense (not that I know details of the case, just what I read about and remember from the news reportings on the case and the trial - I'm sure there is more nuance to that story than what I'm presenting here).

Re:False confessions by mahyarm on Sunday August 14, 2011 @11:12PM (#2885296)
But don't take it to the extreme. Do talk a little bit 'What is the problem officer', 'Do you know why I pulled you over? -- No", "Am I free to go?" when it takes longer than it should and a little politeness can go a long way when your pulled over for a minor ticket. Shut up in all other situations, detainment, questioning, asking to search and especially once your arrested.
Re:False confessions by burgerbrain on Monday August 15, 2011 @01:00AM (#2885547)
Especially shut up in traffic stops. Police rely very heavily on confessions in such situations, and don't appreciate lying. Even if you think you're telling the truth, they won't (that is why they pulled you over..). Saying anything except answering their queries with carefully constructed responses will either incriminate you or make them mad.

  "Do you now how fast you were going?"

  "What do you have me as officer?"

  "15 over, but since you were wearing your seatbelt I'll
   let you off with a warning"
The number of times I have directly participated in this exchange or been present for it is rather impressive (flyover country, long stretches of straight roads limited to 60mph...). Be polite, but do not admit to a thing.
Re:False confessions by mahyarm on Monday August 15, 2011 @08:45PM (#2889296)
Being completely silent from the start is really weird and doesn't really get you anywhere, which people can get the impression of in the video.
Re:False confessions by burgerbrain on Tuesday August 16, 2011 @01:11PM (#2891976)
A simple "Evening officer" is perfectly ok. If you continue with "..what seems to be the problem?" then you are getting into iffy territory though. Let them tell you that there seems to be a problem.
Re:False confessions by mahyarm on Tuesday August 16, 2011 @10:31PM (#2893792)
So you've had an officer walk up to you, you said hello and then you said absolutely nothing at all in return afterwards? Your mouth didn't open one bit? How did that go?
Re:False confessions by roel_v on Monday August 15, 2011 @05:43AM (#2886150)
Well in the video a law school professor with experience as a criminal defense attorney and a police officer say otherwise. Saying 'no' to 'do you know why I pulled you over' is ok (I guess, as long as there are no other circumstances that make it plausible that you knew why you were being pulled over, in which case your 'no' would make you lying to the police), but initiating conversation with 'what is the problem' not.