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Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by lalaland1125 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @12:56AM (#28782161)
The fees for Bitcoin are way too high to make sense for citizens in poor authoritarian counties.

The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network.

And the lightning network is a poor solution to this because the LN requires a lot of capital to fund channels, something poor people explicitly don't have.

Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have to point to poor authoritarian countries to find legitimate usecases is telling in and of itself. It's basically a blunt admission that the technology is mostly useless in the US.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by glenvdb on Thursday October 07, 2021 @05:14AM (#28783960)
>Finally, the fact that Bitcoin proponents have to point to poor authoritarian countries to find legitimate usecases is telling in and of itself. It's basically a blunt admission that the technology is mostly useless in the US.

You say that as though it makes it all but useless, despite the value it provides to people in those countries... that's very telling in itself.

But as I said there are many use cases, I just pointed out a few that I thought were most important on a global scale... because, you know, it's not all about people in wealthy developed nations.

But outside of those types of countries, and in countries like the US, the self-serving use case is a hedge against inflation. If inflation doesn't worry you, that's ok, but the recent money printing in trillions of dollars worries lots of other people. In 20 years I've seen the purchasing power of my money halved. I'm much happier to store my money in an asset that, so far, is seeing its purchasing power increase year on year.

From a technical standpoint the other use case, over the lightning network (and other layers and sidechains), is that it allows for instant micro-payments not possible with the legacy financial system. People are building products like podcast platforms which stream satoshis to content creators for every minute someone listens to their podcast. Others are building systems where every API call can be instantly billed. Or content distribution systems (think Bittorrent) where seeders can be compensated for service.

There are plenty of technical uses cases for a digital native money on the internet.

If you don't understand why it has utility I don't think there's anything more I can say to convince you. Sorry.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by brigandish on Thursday October 07, 2021 @02:22AM (#28782865)
This may be a bit off-topic and I don't know much about crypto currencies, but I do know that one of the reasons Stellar was set up the way it is, is to enable tiny transaction fees so that anyone could participate, including the poor or those without the kind of access to a stable currency or financial services that most of us on this forum would normally expect. Thus, the transaction fees are minimal.

I guess it should be possible to trade bitcoin via the stellar network (according to their intro page[1], any currency can be), but I could well be wrong.

I got some given to me in the Keybase drop so I read up on them, but that's the limit of my knowledge in this area. I'd love to find a way to use them but articles like this talking about ponzi schemes etc tend to put me off bothering.

[1] https://www.stellar.org/learn/intro-to-stellar

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by idontwantthis on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:20AM (#28782352)
$5-$20 for any amount is comparable or much less than almost any international transaction fee. If you're other option is transferring money out of the authoritarian country into your destination then this could be very attractive.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by Closi on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:34AM (#28782486)
I mean my bank (Monzo) charges $0.40 for a small international transfer, and $3.20 for one that is $1000, so depending on the transaction size in most scenarios for me personally bitcoins fees would be WAY higher and will presumably only grow more if Bitcoin gains further adoption.

The problem is that the Bitcoin fee is also payable on all domestic transfers too, which of course are free in traditional banking.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by ipaddr on Thursday October 07, 2021 @02:24AM (#28782878)
If your account is frozen for whatever political reason your bank can't help you. Bitcoin fees can be 15 cents. I think it is a dollar now. Plus the 10,000 or 100,000 limit you would have could prevent you.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by Closi on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:12PM (#28789278)
Yeah but the question was about transaction fees so why are we now talking about freezing accounts?
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by lalaland1125 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:26AM (#28782408)
Keep in mind that this purely the onchain transaction fee.

You are also going to paying exchange fees each way and those fees are likely to be quite large in authoritarian countries (as any illegal activity is generally more expensive).

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by sildur on Thursday October 07, 2021 @02:19AM (#28782840)
Also, in countries with fake exchange values (like Argentina or Venezuela) you get 1/3 of the currency for your dollars, while with bitcoin you get the full value.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by newswasboring on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:01AM (#28782196)
> The average transaction fee during slow periods is about $5 and it jumps to $20 whenever there is load on the network.

When people say this, do they mean $5/$20 per bitcoin or per any transaction whatever size?

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by lalaland1125 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:04AM (#28782217)
That is the average fee across all transactions.

Transaction fees are per kb of data so more complex transactions pay more. The amount transfered is irrelevant.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by newswasboring on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:52AM (#28782608)
I'm sorry if I appear a bit dense, but this is the part of bitcoin I least understand. On an individual level, when transferring person to person, are the transactions ever more complex than just remove funds from here and add it to another wallet?
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by CheezeIt on Thursday October 07, 2021 @02:13AM (#28782780)
You might have multiple inputs or outputs for an ordinary payment. There are several other types, see https://developer.bitcoin.org/devguide/transactions.html#sta...
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by playcache on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:16AM (#28782319)
Its currently $2 on the segwit to confirm 6 blocks (irrespective of the amount)
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by liamwire on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:05AM (#28782227)
Per any transaction, regardless of size.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by dmoy on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:15AM (#28782311)
What the shit?

It costs $5 to spend any amount of Bitcoin?

Is that for real? (I genuinely don't know, that just sounds so high)

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by Closi on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:36AM (#28782502)
It depends on the time you make the transaction and how fast you want the transaction to be confirmed.

If you don’t pay enough it can take hours for your coffee to be paid for.

So every time you buy a coffee with Bitcoin the transaction fee is different and sometimes will cost more than the coffee itself.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by kevinak on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:28AM (#28782422)
No it's not real, the cost to do a simple transfer up until yesterday has been in the ballpark of 0.1-0.15. This very moment it's around $1. You can see the current estimated cost here: https://mempool.space

In addition to that, there's always the Lightning Network as well wherein you can transact for fractions of pennies.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by foepys on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:31AM (#28782453)
The lightning network only allows you to transact if you fund a channel first, which requires an on-chain Bitcoin transaction to create and eventually one to close, thus incurring transaction costs twice.

You should fund a LN channel for more than one transaction because you cannot change the channel funds after creation, so you better make sure enough is in it. This makes it unsuitable for things that require more than a tiny fraction of your monthly income, e.g. rent.

LN channels also need to be constantly monitored to not get scammed, which the LN whitepaper suggests you to pay third parties for.

The LN whitepaper completely obmits the routing problem, too. It more or less says "we don't want to think about that now". A network whitepaper that doesn't think about routing, imagine that.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by jgun83 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @12:43PM (#28788788)
What? You can download a lightning wallet right now and I can send you sats without you having to fund anything or even provide any personal information.

Yes, that makes it a closed system, but it was never realistic to have every single person on earth access bitcoin via on-chain transactions.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by joeberon on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:31AM (#28782456)
If you want to get it on the other side in a reasonable timeframe, yes
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by ericd on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:31AM (#28782457)
My understanding is that it requires the burning of a ludicrous amount of electricity to get a transaction written on the main chain.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by phreack on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:07AM (#28782248)
The second one.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by louloulou on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:40AM (#28782524)
Inflation protection for long-term savings is a huge use case.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by ogogmad on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:55AM (#28782630)
When people stop buying the latest and greatest machines for Bitcoin mining, Bitcoin's price will crash to zero. It will trigger double-spending attacks, which will undermine trust in the network. Gold doesn't have this problem; so gold is better.

Gold has been used to store value for thousands of years, while Bitcoin is a new and experimental technology. It's absurd to say that you would use an experimental technology to store long-term wealth. Maybe once it's tried and proven, fine. But right now it's inefficient, volatile, has high fees, and has got the problem with mining I talked about above.

For clarity: My comments above are directly relevant to the comment above about inflation. Guarding against inflation is about holding onto your wealth for the long term. I was comparing Bitcoin to gold for that purpose -- which is entirely valid.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by Gosper on Thursday October 07, 2021 @03:27AM (#28783280)
> When people stop buying the latest and greatest machines for Bitcoin mining, Bitcoin's price will crash to zero. It will trigger double-spending attacks, which will undermine trust in the network. Gold doesn't have this problem; so gold is better.

Nope, you're laboring under a misapprehension. Even if all new compute power stopped being manufactured miners will run their existing equipment. The mining difficulty will plateau and overtime gently decrease as equipment breaks.

Older and less efficient (at computing double SHA-256) equipment can be profitably brought online where the price of electricity to do so is available and other more valuable uses of that energy in that locale are not possible.

You can ride this all the way back down the years and generations of ASICs then GPUs to CPUs. Once humanity is out of CPUs, well, we'll have more pressing issues. We'll talk again then, or not.

Yes, mining and securing the network nevermind transmitting transactions would be difficult with ink, paper, and abacus technology alone. I'd expect gold to hold some value here despite difficulty in securing and assaying it restricting its useble value to technical specialists and institutions. Nonperishable food, water filters, consumable entertaining substances, etc. would be a better bet if you're prepping against a Mad Max level of collapse.

Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by earnesti on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:06AM (#28782234)
Custodial wallets are also one solution to that. I'm not saying that BTC fee problem isnt real, but there also are ways around it.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by lalaland1125 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:09AM (#28782270)
If you are using custodial wallets, you might as well use USD as your unit of account.
Re:Bitcoin is a Ponzi by reedjosh on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:04AM (#28782214)
Monero does solve these issues though.