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Re:I'm sorry by Afforess on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:06PM (#28779603)
I'm confused why the correct course of action isn't to revert the commit, ask the author to re-open the PR for comment, and follow the process. Why the tortious apology?
Re:I'm sorry by Zababa on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:10PM (#28779643)
If I wanted to interpret this in a paranoiac way, I would say that's because the author of the PR isn't apologetic at all, and in fact is quite fine with forcing a PR through the maintainers without their consent.
Re:I'm sorry by bovermyer on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:15PM (#28779688)
Remember the old adage - never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Hanlon's Razor, I believe it was.

And here, by "stupidity," I just mean the author didn't think about that.

Too often people are willing to attribute sinister meaning to what, in reality, was just a mistake.

Re:I'm sorry by Zababa on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:25PM (#28779772)
Assuming good intentions is a good way to get abused by people exploiting the fact that you assume good intentions. The person in question did a PR, someone informed her that she should follow the rules, she didn't, merged her PR, more people complained. Right now the PR is still merged. She wrote that whole text, and the PR is still merged.

Since I can't read people's mind, a good trick that I learned is to derive intent from actions. Removing a merged PR is easy, especially when you can force merge one in the first place. Yet she didn't do it, but wrote a lot of text that is apparently an apology. If it's an apology, why is there no show of regret by retracting her PR? Maybe because it's not actually an apology.

Edit: the PR was removed by the current maintainer.

Re:I'm sorry by throwawayboise on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:41PM (#28779888)
> Assuming good intentions is a good way to get abused by people exploiting the fact that you assume good intentions.

And assuming bad intentions is a good way to live a miserable unhappy life.

Re:I'm sorry by Zababa on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:44PM (#28779912)
Yes, which is why I think deriving intentions from actions is useful in a lot of cases.
Re:I'm sorry by derefr on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:55PM (#28779996)
> If it's an apology, why is there no show of regret by retracting her PR?

Perhaps because nobody has asked her to do so. Despite the contribution process not being followed, the results are seemingly desirable; and so nobody seems to want to worsen the codebase by reverting the change, even temporarily.

Process is great when it improves quality, but process followed just to follow process—when it won't result in a change in quality—is just pageantry. Engineers are generally too practical (and impatient!) to participate in pageantry, even as an act of public humiliation for someone they're annoyed with.

The repo has other maintainers; any of them could have reverted the merge and demanded the PR process be followed, if they thought it was a good idea to do that. What intent do you derive from their inaction?

Re:I'm sorry by gpm on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:59PM (#28780011)
> My understanding is that she did a PR, quickly merged it, and people only noticed after it had already happened. Nobody interjected to complain; there wasn't really time to do so.

The PR is here, it was explicitly rejected (with two comments) and closed before she merged it

https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/778

Re:I'm sorry by gpm on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:56PM (#28780002)
> and the PR is still merged.

It looks like the actual maintainer reverted it?

https://github.com/reactiveui/splat/pull/779

Re:I'm sorry by Zababa on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @08:03PM (#28780051)
They did, I made the same mistake here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28779659
Re:I'm sorry by jeffparsons on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @08:04PM (#28780055)
Sometimes Hanlon's razor is in tension with Occam's. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, maybe it is actually a bad actor. Or something like that.

Either way, I think the idea of "the banality of evil" is more useful here than Hanlon's Razor. Claire Novotny may well have simply not thought about her actions. Is she still responsible for them? Should we care that she meant well if she continued her bad behaviour after it was pointed out to her?

And what if somebody makes a habit of not thinking about their actions despite having it pointed out to them repeatedly that their actions cause harm to others? (It sure seems to be an effective way to climb the ladder.) Can they still hide behind the defense of "meaning well"? By analogy, what if somebody makes a habit of getting behind the wheel while intoxicated. If they hit a pedestrian, how much do you care that the drunk driver meant well?

Re:I'm sorry by bovermyer on Thursday October 07, 2021 @07:47AM (#28785017)
I would hardly equate drunk driving to Novotny's actions.

But to address your analogy, I simply do not have enough information to tell whether Ms. Novotny is a bad actor or not. In the absence of such information, I can only assess a situation based on my prior life experiences.

Re:I'm sorry by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:51PM (#28779965)
Hanlon's razor is a great principle to apply to your personal relationships, but you'll make yourself a mark if you start applying it to the machinations of trillion dollar companies.
Re:I'm sorry by nimvlaj30 on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:32PM (#28779831)
Hanlon's Razor is just a heuristic. What is the reasoning for following it? Or do we just blindly follow an age-old adage because it sounds philosophical?
Re:I'm sorry by bovermyer on Thursday October 07, 2021 @07:37AM (#28784939)
For my part, I'm going off of my life experiences.

In the vast majority of cases, the logic behind Hanlon's Razor held. Many times I assumed malicious intent and was proved wrong. As I've gotten older, I've assumed malicious intent less frequently.

Re:I'm sorry by Zababa on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:20AM (#28785856)
I would assume that you fell on the "assume malicious intent too much" side of what's probably a normal distribution, while some other people are on the other side. If that theory is correct, people like you would benefit from Hanlon's razor, but other people would not, they should do the opposite.

I think "people that don't assume enough malicious intent" are a real thing, so I think Hanlon's razor is not an universally good recommandation.

Re:I'm sorry by _wldu on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:44PM (#28779910)
I would not say people are stupid. We should never assume we know why someone did something and then take action based on that assumption.

When someone cuts you off in traffic, for example, they probably did not see you or are late for an important event or their wife is in the emergency room having a baby. It probably was not personal or malicious.

Re:I'm sorry by codingdave on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:11PM (#28779651)
I'd guess because of this part of the post:

"There is a pattern that needs to be resolved. Projects might not fully understand what joining the .NET Foundation means..."

This sounds like not only an apology, but an attempt to start a discussion surrounding the community overall and get everyone to have matching expectations.

Re:I'm sorry by bombcar on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:22PM (#28779742)
“I’m sorry you don’t understand that I’m altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it further.”
Re:I'm sorry by katbyte on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @11:00PM (#28781330)
the maintainer closed the PR twice, asking for her to follow the process before she reopened and merged it. Then reverted it.

the apology is because it's not just about this PR. Among other things there is moving a number of projects into the foundations enterprise gh org without any warning/discussion using the admin account they forced upon/bullied project orgs into adding. This has affected some in a negative way already.

Re:I'm sorry by umeshunni on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:06PM (#28779613)
Because attention seeking...
Re:I'm sorry by da_big_ghey on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:10PM (#28779646)
Maybe since this person has a prominent place there is an attempt to set a better example for others? Not a cool move by Oren but maybe a "teachable moment".
Re:I'm sorry by chusk3 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:57AM (#28785616)
Please use the appropriate name for the person in question. Claire is her name.
Re:I'm sorry by Afforess on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:07PM (#28779623)
I'm trying to assume good faith
Re:I'm sorry by bombcar on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:13PM (#28779668)
This reads like someone who has the ability and power to just steamroll over everything trying to pretend they don’t have that power.