News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by jsiepkes on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @05:11AM (#28770835)
> An unreleased Steam competitor, codenamed Vapor, from Amazon Game Studios

The choosing of the name Vapor is probably no accident when the main competitor is Steam.

Just like when IBM launched the "Eclipse foundation" which was arguably based on one of Sun's most prized possessions; Java.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by adolph on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:25AM (#28773558)
Another lovely naming story:

When new sounds for System 7 were created, the sounds were reviewed by Apple's Legal Department who objected that the new sound alert "chime" had a name that was "too musical", under the recent settlement [with Beatles' record label Apple Records]. Jim Reekes, the creator of the new sound alerts for System 7, had grown frustrated with the legal scrutiny and first quipped it should be named "Let It Beep", a pun on "Let It Be". When someone remarked that that would not pass the Legal Department's approval, he remarked, "so sue me". After a brief reflection, he resubmitted the sound's name as sosumi (a homophone of "so sue me"). Careful to submit it in written form rather than spoken form to avoid pronunciation, he told the Legal Department that the name was Japanese and had nothing to do with music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by chrisjc on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:16AM (#28771251)
Eclipse... Sun... how did I go all these years without noticing this!
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Arathorn on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:52AM (#28771978)
IBM weren't the only people to play that game. The codename for the SGI Indigo was also Eclipse, for similar reasons, iirc.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by monkeybutton on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @05:38PM (#28778824)
And where do explorers like to go? On safaris.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by ketzo on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:27PM (#28779792)
...wow. Genuinely can't believe that has never occurred to me.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by mhh__ on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:35PM (#28780740)
Another one that I'm not sure is true or not:

Intel get the Apple gig -> Gets called Intel Core i.e. Apple Core.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by rsynnott on Thursday October 07, 2021 @10:05AM (#28786409)
And if you're an explorer, you should probably also be a good Navigator.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by dijit on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @05:27AM (#28770934)
I worked for Nokia for a brief moment in time and the Nokia E71 (or another in that line) was internally codenamed "BeeBee" (like: blackberry) which was comical to me given that the phone looked a lot like a contemporary era blackberry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_E71

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Curve

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by d3nj4l on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @05:52AM (#28771085)
The E71 was a god tier device. Owned one for a good bit as a teen and it was the perfect phone for that time IMO. You could even WhatsApp on it until relatively recently.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by stevecat on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:32AM (#28771376)
Yep! E71, E72, and E6 were some of my most loved phones. My love of that form factor meant that my first foray into Android was the HTC ChaCha - that was a mistake.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by kawsper on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:21AM (#28771734)
I had a Qtek 8300 running Windows Mobile 5.0, it really felt like a computing device before smart phones appeared.

It was slow and buggy, but it felt like a handheld computer.

Qtek rebranded to HTC and I bought a HTC Touch running Windows Mobile 6.0, I am not sure when or what I switched to afterwards, maybe an Android.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by epse on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:27AM (#28782413)
Oh man qtek flashbacks. I had a 5050, great device but good lord the battery life ducked as soon as you connected to anything (and it only had mobile data, no WiFi, unless you put in an sd expansion card). No more battery? Then your data gets wiped
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Lorin on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:17AM (#28782326)
100% agreed, my first smart phone and I still miss some features to this day. Really great. Shame no one makes a physical keyboard attachment or a follow up Blackberry device.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by 14u2c on Thursday October 07, 2021 @03:08AM (#28783152)
Almost the exact same situation for me except it was the E61. I remember playing DOOM on it for the first time and being quite impressed.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by dfox on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:47AM (#28773152)
IIRC the whole common HW platform of late model E-series Symbian phones from Nokia was code named BB. Both E61 and E91 call themselves (IIRC) "BB v5.0" in USB descriptors.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by bogwog on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:36AM (#28772998)
That sounds like an internal product name. At launch they'll probably pick something significantly less clever and more generic.

It would be pretty awesome if they stuck with "Vapor" though. It'd be some WWE-style drama, and great for marketing.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by scrollaway on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:00AM (#28773284)
We could call games released on there Vaporware :)
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by xdrosenheim on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:08AM (#28773373)
And sales would come in Vaporwaves.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Asraelite on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:34AM (#28771395)
Kind of a funny choice when "vaporware" is a thing.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by bogwog on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:37AM (#28773007)
Extra funny with the context of Amazon Game Studios.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by ginko on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:07AM (#28771623)
Kinda works as a tongue-in-cheek internal code name.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by checkyoursudo on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:51AM (#28771505)
Oh ho ho! Vapor is what I call my shell function that launches Steam. Guess I am on to something.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:57AM (#28771547)
It won't work, I don't understand why they're bothering. You can't compete with steam, unless you're trying to hit a niche market.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by meibo on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @06:58AM (#28771559)
Amazon has even more money to throw at studios than Epic, so they can just force themselves into it.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by ryathal on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:56AM (#28773901)
It's more than just throwing money at it. EA tried and failed to separate from Steam. Epic might succeed, but it's not going to be because of money, but because Fortnite let them capture young gamers before they got into Steam. Wherever a user gets a critical mass of a library built up first is going to be the winner.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by tyrfing on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @12:13PM (#28774849)
> Wherever a user gets a critical mass of a library built up first is going to be the winner.

This is where they've been throwing money at the problem: giving away a ridiculous amount of games for free.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/12/22380895/epic-games-store...

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by WorldMaker on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:23PM (#28775736)
Useful to note that Prime Gaming has been doing the exact same strategy (for longer), backfilling users' catalogs by throwing a lot of money in games giveaways. Once the games have been added to your Amazon/Twitch today you can download an EXE installer from a hard to find Amazon page or use a really bland "Twitch Launcher" app that clearly is the first stage towards "Vapor" or whatever the final brand would be. For a lot of Amazon Prime users that pay attention to the Prime Gaming page month to month and click the bright shiny green "Claim" buttons whenever they show up, Amazon can just go "look at all the games you already 'own'" when they start actually marketing it as its own store.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by echelon on Thursday October 07, 2021 @12:59AM (#28782175)
It ought to be illegal for a 100B+ market cap company to operate in this way. They can just pour money at the problem until the incumbents shrivel up and die. Hyper fucking bad behavior that leaves the true innovators and people that care out in the cold.

On the other hand, it should be possible for consumers to claim products they own on different platforms by peering a list of their their owned (licensed) products.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by WorldMaker on Thursday October 07, 2021 @12:15PM (#28788319)
The early 20th century put a lot of Monopoly and Trust Busting laws on the books that say some of this is illegal, not just "ought to be". What we've lost since then hasn't seemed to be the laws themselves but the willpower to regulate in the spirit of those laws and executive power to enforce those laws.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by phlakaton on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:57AM (#28786318)
Tech companies engaging in monopolistic practices to destroy competition? You don't say.

It happened to me. If you're in the industry long enough, I'll wager it happens to you too.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Arrath on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @12:25PM (#28774991)
It is quite nice, I think I paid for 1 game of the 14 in my epic library.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by trey-jones on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:32PM (#28775840)
I wonder how much I paid over the last 15 years for the 198 games in my Steam library. Not that much, I suspect between all the Humble Bundles and steam sales of yore. Nevertheless I was pissed when I had to get Origin in order to even play Mass Effect 3, and I never even considered the epic store, so I think the theory of library investment is sound. Steam has a good head start on a lot of us.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by emodendroket on Thursday October 07, 2021 @03:42AM (#28783345)
Everybody hated Steam when it was new too and with the frequent Epic game giveaways people will eventually have large catalogs of Epic games they grabbed on a lark. Between that and a number of highly desired sequels being exclusive to the platform I can't see why they wouldn't be able to eventually make inroads.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Arrath on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:56PM (#28776134)
It absolutely does. The singular reason I signed up for Epic was Borderlands 3, everything else is in my Steam library.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by eric-hu on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:13PM (#28775608)
Do you remember a time when people were predicting this deep pocketed company Microsoft would bomb with their Xbox? It’s not a sure thing that Amazon could dislodge Steam, but there’s precedent.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @08:21AM (#28772241)
The problem isn't the product. I was going to compete with Steam at one point and we had objectively better systems and a better client.

The problem was the critical mass issue - no users, no publishers, neither want to join without the other.

Amazon will definitely get publishers but will users join? That's not a given.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by rawbot on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:17PM (#28775651)
By better systems, I hope you are also including, to name a few: Remote Play, Remote Play Together, Game Streaming, Screenshot capture, Controller API that also works in Desktop, a project to help Linux compatibility with zero effort from the game devs.

I think people just consider Steam as a store, but it has become much more than that.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:52PM (#28776069)
Never got as far as Remote Play or Game Streaming but would have been trivial for us to do so given the backend infrastructure we had already written.

Game overlays and capture were working fine, and the controller API was designed to support any number of controllers (Steam's support is great but their interfaces are subpar, in our opinion). We were also able to pull from a well known database of controller configurations and device IDs, which really made this a non-issue.

Linux compatibility was fine as far as the client went (all of our code was cross-platform and not webkit frames or the like). The client even ran on Android and iOS.

If you're referring to Steam's Proton, we really didn't want to touch that area for a while. But we had much better systems for searching for new titles, including those that worked well on the system and also matched all of the criteria (tags and whatnot).

Our social system was also designed to support "cross-talk" between different marketplaces (Steam, GoG Universe and Epic) but we never got as far as building out any client functionality - just the initial blackbox proof of concepts.

The store aspect was indeed just a smaller part of it, though it was complicated in its own right.

The project was a great idea and we were executing well on it. Lots of cool new tech was developed for it. But nobody we talked to wanted it - including publishers, users, investors, or even friends. It didn't matter how compatible we made it, the fact that we didn't push you to re-buy games, etc.

We wanted to make an non-shitty experience for gaming and the market simply said "no".

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by lobocinza on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @07:52PM (#28779980)
Have you approached Valve?
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:37PM (#28780751)
We definitely thought about it, but decided against it. We've re-used a lot of it in some other endeavors we're working on so we don't really want to share the IP.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by gizdan on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:21AM (#28773524)
Amazon already has customers. If their other products are to go by, they'll just give you an account if you have an Amazon account. Probably combined with free games if you have a prime account and you can imagine that it won't take much to compete, at least not for a company like Amazon.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by isk517 on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:36AM (#28773662)
That was my thought. They already give away free games over Prime, if they leverage that they have already given a large number of people stake in their new market place. Plus they own Twitch, I don't believe there is a publisher who isn't interested in the idea of people being able to impulse buy whatever there favorite streamer is playing without even leaving the stream. The strategy is pretty easy actually, give streamers a cut of each sale and encourage them to put up notifications when it happens like they do subs and cheers.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:54PM (#28776093)
The free games on prime accounts is probably exactly what will happen, and will probably be what needs to happen for it to be any amount of successful.

Look at Epic which offers free games but sees pretty slow growth outside of their flagships. Further, look at Amazon's lumberyard engine, which gathers dust for the most part.

I'm not convinced that their 'weight' will automatically guarantee wide adoption.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by echelon on Thursday October 07, 2021 @01:03AM (#28782208)
Amazon engineers are poorly compensated, overworked, abused, and write garbage code.

That's not a formula for winning.

Unfortunately, Amazon has all the money in the world to keep throwing at the problem. Eventually some of the spaghetti will stick to the wall.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by tomjen3 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @12:31AM (#28781939)
I signed up for Steam because they gave away Portal.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by pc86 on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @11:18AM (#28774183)
You just answered your own question.

> no users, no publishers, neither want to join without the other

> Amazon will definitely get publishers but will users join?

Well, the publishers will be there. If users have a reason to go there over Steam, they will. Amazon will lock in a few exclusives, people will start to come over. Who knows, maybe there will be some way to verifiably move your Steam library over to an Amazon account?

I don't think the bar to compete with Steam is as high as you're suggesting, but even if it is, if anybody was going to start listing companies that could conceivably do it, Amazon would probably be on the list.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by ratww on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @04:53PM (#28778283)
> Who knows, maybe there will be some way to verifiably move your Steam library over to an Amazon account?

The library is the #1 reason people stay in Steam. Lots of people just buy games in other places and just add it there.

Amazon could, for example, offer different royalties (say, 10% instead of 30%) for publishers willing to have their old games "moveable" to Amazon's hypothetical new platform and I bet a lot of studios would take the deal. This is not unheard of: it's how Apple does iTunes Match.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:56PM (#28776119)
> Who knows, maybe there will be some way to verifiably move your Steam library over to an Amazon account?

Given that steam has pretty strict terms with publishers over this, I highly, highly doubt they would do this unless they wanted to dump a huge ocean of money into free license comps for developers to make money from and for users to get free games.

Competing with Steam isn't only just a money/size thing, though of course that helps.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by lbhdc on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @08:44AM (#28772448)
I would imagine they would attempt to secure exclusive rights to a popular title and only distribute it from their new platform. I believe that is what epic did when they launched their store.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:54AM (#28773227)
Yeah, and a lot of people loathe them for it. I'm one of them.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by trey-jones on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:33PM (#28775854)
And my axe.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:56PM (#28776130)
Yes and it backfired spectacularly.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by baud147258 on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:44AM (#28773091)
Epic did that, plus giving away loads of free games, like a new free game every two weeks.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by o_m on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:24AM (#28773541)
So does Microsoft, but Xbox has been in decline since after Xbox 360
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by cableshaft on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @11:04AM (#28774000)
I think Microsoft is just less concerned about hardware now, so it looks like they're doing worse when they're not really.

Like I haven't touched my Xbox One in years, but I'm still giving them $10/month for Xbox Game Pass for my PC.

"In its latest financial results, Microsoft announced that the gaming division revenue was up 50% year-on-year, boasting huge $3.53 billion earnings over the past 12 months. The vast majority of that income stems from Xbox hardware (largely the launch of the Xbox Series X/S), which is up 232%."

https://www.vg247.com/xbox-revenue-hardware-game-pass-boost-...

Okay, I guess hardware is still big for them. Huh.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by Factorium on Thursday October 07, 2021 @02:44AM (#28783004)
Its easy to compete with Steam:

- 10-15% commission

- Exclusives

- Curation/quality control

- Integrated anti-piracy

- Forums/modding/game guides

- User profiles/achievements/gamification

- Less generous regional pricing (like on consoles) in exchange for slightly lower overall pricing

- 5% cashback into wallets, like Nintendo eShop

Epic only does some of these things, which is why its struggling. Its lack of social features is a major reason for low engagement on the platform, probably driven by Tencent and Chinese censorship restrictions (in the same way that the Steam forums are unavailable in China).

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Thursday October 07, 2021 @04:49AM (#28783776)
10-15% would not convince publishers.

Exclusives are anti-consumer and doesn't convince users if we follow what Epic did.

It's easy to say "curation/quality control" but to come up with a method and algorithmic way of doing it well is insanely difficult.

Anti-piracy is just called DRM and it's not really foolproof nor always desired. GoG is successful in catering that niche. It also requires a good understanding of reverse engineering hardening, so much easier said than done.

Forums/modding/whatever, yeah sure perhaps "simple" but quite extensive. Even for a large company, code doesn't write itself (well, not any code you want to rely on, at least).

I don't really get the console pricing aspect, sorry.

Cashback isn't a free thing, it's a marketing campaign - even if it runs indefinitely. I don't think that would work by itself, it's a bit of a gimmick.

Epic is struggling because of their anti consumer strategies, aggressive and oftentimes reckless CEO, seemingly constant and very public lawsuits with huge companies, and trying to stay relevant outside of Fortnite.

I agree that lack of social contributed to it but is far from the only problem. For example, Epic doesn't have a cart. It's been a widely requested feature, but they focus on other things.

Tencent is a cancer upon this world and I have little base respect for companies that go with them.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by bluedino on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @10:25AM (#28773551)
Amazon would have no problem releasing a 'Fire' console and they have their own distribution and store...
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by junon on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:59PM (#28776156)
And then they would have to convince publishers to target yet _another_ console. That's a hard ask.
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by mhh__ on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:37PM (#28780753)
Make it run Linux and piggyback Valve.

FWIW The notion that a company like Amazon or whatever can have it's tentacles in these kinds of things at will is proof they are getting too big.

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by darklycan51 on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @11:35AM (#28774392)
Anyone who played new world private alpha new this, the first alpha (closed) had an amazon games Epic Games like client, they choose to remove it for new world public beta and release but I knew they had been working on it because of it
Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by incahoots on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @09:22AM (#28772833)
>vapor

>vaporware

I see no issue here

Re:Twitch source code and customer data has reportedly been ... by paxys on Wednesday October 06, 2021 @01:37PM (#28775904)
Eclipse makes sense, but vapor is just..another word for steam?