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Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by Someone on Saturday October 02, 2021 @08:37AM (#28728124)
FTA: They admit to being completely baffled about why the mamba would produce it.

I would guess it keeps their target calm. A panicking prey is more likely to injure the snake than one that dies before it realizes it got seriously bitten.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:14AM (#28728305)
>> FTA: They admit to being completely baffled about why the mamba would produce it.

It's because they are scientists. Scientists are always "baffled", in the news.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by 0xB31B1B on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:38AM (#28728476)
Very frustrating. In practice the scientists are expressing uncertainty “we do no know/need to investigate further” not confusion or bewilderment
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday October 02, 2021 @07:58PM (#28733287)
I can imagine the journalists asking them "are you completely baffled?".
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by wwweston on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:34AM (#28728444)
"the mind that is not baffled is not employed

the impeded stream is the one that sings"

-- Wendell Berry

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by nyokodo on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:53PM (#28730527)
That’s a simple and lovely poem that speaks to me deeply. Thanks for teaching me it exists.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by cheese_van on Saturday October 02, 2021 @02:49PM (#28730988)
A snake, you see, Has no legs to flee. When frightened He does not dither, He slithers.

(high school poet me, neither lovely nor deep, but I can't help myself)

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by wwweston on Saturday October 02, 2021 @03:33PM (#28731317)
Berry's a good well for deep-speaking thought.

The essay from which it comes is pretty great too -- I don't think it's online in whole form but there are pieces discussed here:

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/11/18/wendell-berry-poetr...

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by raverbashing on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:46AM (#28728535)
Yeah for real this is a major issue in news and science communication.

There's "we don't know" (and we have no idea why), there's "we don't know" (just because we didn't prove it yet, but our money is on that) or (we think it's because so and so but haven't looked into it) and in-betweens.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 02, 2021 @10:21AM (#28728770)
> being completely baffled about why the mamba would produce it

Is it delivered in a dose sufficient to cause unconsciousness, or even just euphoric lethargy in its prey? If so, that sounds both effective and weirdly sweet, given nature's usual barbarism.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by DamnYuppie on Saturday October 02, 2021 @11:23AM (#28729293)
I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things.

Outside of that is an anomaly reserved for those at the absolute apex of power. This power was accumulated by being incredibly adaptable and observant. Both of these qualities made our ancestors very very good at killing things.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 02, 2021 @11:33AM (#28729405)
> frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric. Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things.

Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated. (Sophistication referring to knowledge and culture.) When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state.

That might make the statement "nature is barbaric" seem tautologic. But your reaction exposes its meaning. The natural state of things, the barbaric state, is on we strive to escape. It is painful and suffering. Sometimes cruel. Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it. To be free of the "natural order of things" by developing our knowledge, culture and civilization.

As you mention, this often involved killing. But killing need not be painful and cruel.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Saturday October 02, 2021 @11:47AM (#28729530)
> Barbaric literally means primitive and unsophisticated

This makes for the foundation of a nice story, but no, that's not what 'barbaric' means. It's not what you'll find in any dictionary, and it's not what the root of the word is. Barbaros, in Greek, referred to non-Greeks, with an early connotation of foreignness. It picked up a connotation of cruelty and savageness as early as the Romans. Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated'.

(Finally, my eight years of Ancient Greek at school comes in slightly handy!)

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 02, 2021 @12:06PM (#28729675)
> Any dictionary since then will give a primary meaning of cruelty and savagery, not just 'primitive and unsophisticated'

And how would those dictionaries define savagery? Webster's first entries are "not domesticated or under human control" and "lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings" [1]. The penultimate comment works with savage and cruel substituted for primitive and unsophisticated.

(Though didn't know the etymology. An honest thank you for that.)

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savage

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:19PM (#28730265)
> And how would those dictionaries define savagery?

I mean, a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one: https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savagery https://www.google.com/search?q=define+savage

Respectfully, I think you're hunting down odd-one-out definitions that support your theory - not necessarily consciously. All of these words connote cruelty. The overwhelming majority of dictionary definitions bear that out.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by vore on Saturday October 02, 2021 @01:37PM (#28730399)
I don't think arguing about the semantics of "barbarism" really takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:30AM (#28745369)
> takes away from the original overarching argument: nature is primitive and cruel but humans in general at least try to alleviate that kind of cruelty seen in non-human nature

And if that were the only claim they made, that would be fine. I just happen to dislike people dishonestly twisting facts – in this case, misrepresenting the meaning of a word by cherry-picking some recherché fringe definition and making it out to be the primary meaning – to make their argument sound more impressive.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 02, 2021 @06:06PM (#28732533)
> a good nothing-up-my-sleeve definition is the Google one

Now try “barbaric”. Definition two: “primitive; unsophisticated” [1]. (Sorry, could not help it.)

> these words connote cruelty

Never argued it didn’t. My original comment uses the same word.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%20barbaric#crs=...

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:19AM (#28745294)
> Now try “barbaric”. Definition two: “primitive; unsophisticated”

Yes, definition two. I reiterate what I said before: you're searching for fringe meanings to back up your argument.

Your original comment argued that the meaning of 'barbaric' was primarily about simplicity and primitiveness, in order to argue that the phrase 'nature is barbaric' is agnostic about nature's cruelty. This makes for a neat-sounding argument, but, again, it's unfortunately just not true. The word 'barbaric' has signified cruelty as its dominant meaning ever since the Romans.

(I know it's tempting to twist the facts a little to make an elegant argument, but it's just not honest to cherry-pick secondary definitions, or anomalous definitions from minor dictionaries, and use sleight-of-hand to pretend that's the main understood meaning.)

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by simorley on Saturday October 02, 2021 @10:07PM (#28733934)
> When we say something is barbaric, we mean it is in its natural, unrefined, untouched-by-civilisation state.

No we don't. We generally use barbaric to describe people. Barbaric comes from barbarian. Which was originally used to describe non-greeks, non-romans, foreigners, etc. It started out as a slur. Philistine is a synonym for barbarian.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/barbarian

> Enough to have motivated our species to seek to not be subject to it.

You act like civilization was something our species strived for rather than had imposed on us. Civilization was predominantly built on slavery and exploitation. The vast majority of humanity suffered under civilization. Humanity no more clamored for civilization than livestock clamored for industrial farms.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Monday October 04, 2021 @07:33AM (#28745380)
Yup, you're entirely correct. I'm disappointed to see your point downvoted. I thought HN was above believing in arguments just because of their elegance, even if that elegance is accomplished by distorting the facts.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by dragonwriter on Saturday October 02, 2021 @04:25PM (#28731781)
> I am continually frustrated by and fail to understand how people can actually believe nature is barbaric.

Because it is.

> Nature is nature, it is kill or be killed, that is actually the natural order of things.

That’s also what people describe as “barbarism”, generally. So, you seem to agree that nature is substantively barbaric, but be confused that people describe it that way.

Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by ptr2voidStar on Saturday October 02, 2021 @04:53PM (#28731987)
Very aptly put.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by _hilro on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:07AM (#28728271)
I would guess it's just a genetic glitch and not some conscious decision or purposeful design.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by daveguy on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:12AM (#28728291)
It doesn't have to be a conscious decision or purposeful design to be "there for a reason". Evolution tends toward solutions because the population that happens to be closer to a solution are more likely to survive. Nothing the op said was incompatible with evolution.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by samhw on Saturday October 02, 2021 @11:55AM (#28729591)
In addition to that, it's certainly not a 'glitch'. A genetic glitch would be a (possibly short-lived) mutation which is still in the 'beta' phase, so to speak, or else a harmful side effect of an otherwise beneficial mutation (e.g. albinism). This is a paradigmatic example of an ordinary useful mutation which persisted because it increased fitness.
Re:Black mamba venom is 'better painkiller' than morphine (2... by alisonkisk on Saturday October 02, 2021 @09:56AM (#28728596)
Evolution doesn't have "reasons" (pre hoc is random mutation) but it has "justifications" (post hoc is natural selection).