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Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by the__alchemist on Thursday September 30, 2021 @03:57PM (#28710597)
Negative. Like scalping everywhere, they're middlemen who contribute nothing to society, and make it more difficult for people who do.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by milesvp on Thursday September 30, 2021 @04:40PM (#28711047)
So, you may be right about scalpers providing nothing to society. But you are absolutely wrong about middle men in general. At a super high level, they have to provide value else they would be short circuited. Very often this value is in knowledge, both product knowledge, customer knowledge, and market fit. A good middle man can tell you that the thing you think you want won't fit your needs as well as some other product (bonus points if the product isn't something they personally sell). You will also find a high correlation between the health of an economy, and the number of middlemen present. It's actually something that has concerned me in the US for several years, that too many companies have been squeezing out the middle. I think it's exacerbated the current supply chain issues.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by pishpash on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:34PM (#28711594)
Middlemen are good if they unbundled and directly charged for their services and did not act as arbitrageurs simultaneously. Middlemen who withhold information or resist competition are rent seeking, which is a strictly negative utility for society.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by blevin on Thursday September 30, 2021 @04:17PM (#28710822)
Some have argued that scalpers, like other risk arbitrageurs, accelerate market price discovery. If you buy the argument that markets are net positive for society by relaying information about economic trade offs, scalpers aren’t necessarily bad even if they are indeed annoying to market participants by lifting the ask. Of course there are extreme conditions where we also might decide that using money as the universal conveyance of value is a bad thing because it reveals how unequal outcomes in society have been… And the usual response is to shift to rationing rather than price to allocate scarce resources. But with rationing you get sidechannel markets and not necessarily efficient allocations.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Swenrekcah on Thursday September 30, 2021 @04:36PM (#28711020)
This argument feels wrong to me. If there is a market for the chip, it will find a market price. If there isn’t there isn’t. If the market is in an equilibrium and the chip manufacturer makes some money on their chips, and the chip buyers make some money on their products, the a scalper coming in and sucking up all the profit isn’t doing anybody in the world any good except themselves.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by medvezhenok on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:34PM (#28711599)
The scalpers don't suck up profit, since if there is a functioning market, you can't really scalp.

Scalping exists when there is a discrepancy between a marked price and the market price of an item. If scalpers were not a thing, you would have shortages. With scalpers, you still have shortages, but you can acquire the good by paying a higher, market clearing price.

That higher price either makes it so that rich people can get the thing (most don't like this), or that people who really need it can get it (i.e. lifesaving medication etc). So your view of scalpers might be influenced by the distribution of (1) and (2) going on.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Swenrekcah on Friday October 01, 2021 @01:12AM (#28714824)
Sure, I get all that but scalping is still in essences a leeching practice.

And yes they can suck up profits, that’s their whole thing. Are you saying that profits can’t exist in a functioning market?

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by nicoburns on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:20PM (#28712466)
My observation is that you mostly get (1). And this is also why wealth inequality (both on a personal and a corporate level) is so bad.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by skybrian on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:29PM (#28711547)
Equilibriums don’t just happen by themselves. When there isn’t an equilibrium, delaying sales by keeping inventory helps the people who didn’t plan ahead.

The ant planned ahead for the winter, the grasshopper didn’t, and the scalper provides a service to the grasshopper, for a price.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by thow-01187 on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:20PM (#28711447)
They provide short-term, non-committal inventories and buffers to a supply chain that doesn't have them, since it runs on long-term contracts. In some ways, they're capitalizing on the failures of just-in-time inventory dogma
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by rtpg on Friday October 01, 2021 @02:01AM (#28715153)
The chips would have been sold in any case!

They're taking advantage of some fluxuations to make money for themselves. That isn't helpful for the producer nor for the purchaser of the goods.

This isn't people setting up futures for 555 timers. This is people scooping up PS5s and immediately selling them for an extra $200.

Of course it's nobody's god-given right to own a PS5 but there's not value being produced here.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by bluecalm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:16PM (#28711406)
Well, they provide value. They make it possible for people/entities who needs things the most to actually get them instead of those who happen to be first in line or in lucky position to get access to supply.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:26PM (#28711511)
Correction: they make it possible for people/entities who can afford to waste most money to get them instead of those first/lucky. But how is that a better outcome? And why should this involve people spending more money, and all the delta going to the person who was first in line or in lucky position to secure a loan and buy off all the supply?
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by lmm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @10:44PM (#28713910)
> they make it possible for people/entities who can afford to waste most money to get them instead of those first/lucky. But how is that a better outcome?

It's not "waste", it's the people who are willing to spend the most money, which are presumably the people who want/need the thing most, so it's better than allocating the thing at random.

> And why should this involve people spending more money, and all the delta going to the person who was first in line or in lucky position to secure a loan and buy off all the supply?

The person who makes a good judgement about what things are underpriced is selling a service to the market and earning their cut. A seller who's paying attention should see the rush and raise their prices (and ideally increase production to match that).

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by puszczyk on Friday October 01, 2021 @05:15AM (#28716229)
> It's not "waste", it's the people who are willing to spend the most money, which are presumably the people who want/need the thing most, so it's better than allocating the thing at random.

It’s not a waste, but it’s not best allocation either. It seems like the chips will go to established players with large and cheap credit lines and ossify the market even more.

The scalpers are not like market makers who are regulated, provide both bid and ask, and whose spread is usually quite small in comparison to scalpers.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marketmakerspread.asp

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by lmm on Sunday October 03, 2021 @12:26AM (#28734534)
> It’s not a waste, but it’s not best allocation either. It seems like the chips will go to established players with large and cheap credit lines and ossify the market even more.

Credit is cheap, and there's no particular barrier to entry (unless we're talking about things like backroom deals with concert promoters, which I'm sure does happen, but isn't an essential part of the business), so I'd expect this to be a fairly competitive market.

> The scalpers are not like market makers who are regulated, provide both bid and ask, and whose spread is usually quite small in comparison to scalpers.

Market maker regulation is relatively recent, and market making is recognised as having served a beneficial function long before that. Many of these ticket sites do list bid prices for your tickets as well. The spread is pretty wide compared to listed equities that trade hundreds of times a second, sure, but if you compare a single concert's ticket with a stock or bond that trades at a similar rate (which would be, like, the bottom end of the pink sheets) it's not so bad.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by medvezhenok on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:38PM (#28711640)
Scalpers allow people who are not price sensitive or have inelastic demand priority over people who are lucky / first.

The ethics depends on the exact case study provided. If it's a rich person buying an xbox (not price sensitive) - that's one thing, and most people would not support it. If it's someone needing an IC for a heart monitor to stay alive (inelastic demand), most would say that providing them an IC over someone who wants to play the latest video game is a good service.

Scalpers do both (1) and (2).

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by nicoburns on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:23PM (#28712488)
Scalpers only do (2) for those who can afford it. If scalpers were willing to hand out goods on the merit of the application rather than profit then I’d have much more sympathy. But then they wouldn’t really be scalpers anymore.

I’m willing to bet that scalpers starve critical applications of goods far more than they provide them. Providers of critical services are usually poorly funded.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by bluecalm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @08:30PM (#28712955)
Or maybe they are price sensitive but the goods are just worth more to them.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by TeMPOraL on Friday October 01, 2021 @05:42AM (#28716384)
The scalper can't distinguish between a poorer person who really needs a thing, and a richer person who just kinda wants it. They will happily price out the former before the latter gives up.

There seems to be an assumption in the discussions about the market that people don't do stupid shit with money. That the same good cannot be both life-critical for one, and a source of cheap entertainment for another. That people only ever spend money to make more money. That they are perfectly consistent over time. That nothing is ever time-critical, it may be only time-discounted.

But the reality is, people are irrational, things take time, and markets have inertia. In a scalper-managed shortage of critical medication, it's perfectly possible for a rich person who watched one too many end-of-the-world movies to buy up the supply at high markup, to stock their fallout shelter, and have it rot there while people who need it die. It takes time for a chip scalper to insert themselves into the market, buy up the supply and advertise their existence - in that time, the factories might be wasting megadollars of money.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by medvezhenok on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:29PM (#28711549)
> Well, they provide value. They make it possible for people/entities who needs things the most to actually get them instead of those who happen to be first in line or in lucky position to get access to supply.

True - they also take on some risk of being stuck with inventory that they can't resell at a profit (if prices drop between when they buy and sell).

Ethically scalping feels wrong, but I think ethics aside, scalping does provide a service to the market.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Lev1a on Friday October 01, 2021 @08:51AM (#28717794)
> Ethically scalping feels wrong, but I think ethics aside, scalping does provide a service to the market.

Yeah fuck ethics, there's profit to be made.

/s