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Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by vharuck on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:15AM (#28641865)
As the article mentions, murder rates rose across the country. And not many cities actually had official support, let alone took action, for defunding or restructuring police forces.

Honestly, blaming it on the "Defund the police" movement is a lazy oversimplification. Even if cops decided to patrol or investigate less because of that movement, I wouldn't expect a massive spike in the murder rate. Sure, people might pick pockets or rob houses if they think nobody's watching, but murder?

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by angelzen on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:53AM (#28642344)
Do you seriously propose that 'defund the police' has no effect whatsoever on the murder rate? Here is a list of largest 100 American cities by party affiliation. Feel free to research whether political affiliation of the city leadership, thus propensity to embrace 'defund the police' policies, has anything to do with the spike in murders.

Unfortunately I am not aware of professional studies of the matter. Perhaps there will never be. Given an academic system that is 99% affiliated with one political party, difficult to find people willing to scuttle their careers by researching topics that might place policies associated with that political party in anything but the most positive light.

https://ballotpedia.org/Party_affiliation_of_the_mayors_of_t...

Edit: Here is a chart showing sharp decline in 'officers in service' numbers in a progressive West Coast city that embraced 'defund the police':

https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/10/after-september-s...

And the spike in murders in the same city:

https://www.seattlepi.com/local/seattlenews/article/2020-cri...

> Crime dashboard data shows that 52 homicides occurred in 2020 compared to 35 in 2019 — an increase of 48.57%.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by curriculum on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:15AM (#28643574)
As a counterpoint to your example of Seattle, Republican-led Fort Worth saw it's homicide numbers increase by 59% in 2020 (even more than Seattle) despite increasing their police budget over the same period:

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article248169...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by derstander on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:33AM (#28642966)
> Do you seriously propose that 'defund the police' has no effect whatsoever on the murder rate?

This is a straw man of the parent’s position. They say “ blaming it on the "Defund the police" movement is a lazy oversimplification”, not that it had “no effect whatsoever”.

It certainly seems plausible to me that having loads of people — particularly those in lower socio-economic strata - without employment for an extended period of time could certainly contribute to crime rate increases.

There’s no need for straw-manning/hysterics here, we can have a measured conversation or debate.

[dead]
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by xmprt on Friday September 24, 2021 @04:02PM (#28647158)
Your second approach is just a different way of saying the first.
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by kenjackson on Friday September 24, 2021 @04:07PM (#28647212)
Has there been any data that indicates that policing has an impact on murder rates ever? Even the murders in the CHAZ in Seattle at the height of defund the police were much more spur of the moment incidents. Not the type of thing someone is likely to reconsider if the police force were doubled.

And given that the murder rate increase was national and not regional, it seems much more likely that it was nationally impacted. Maybe something like a pandemic which led to social stresses, economic stresses, and increases in gun purchases.

Another city in Washington, Spokane, saw about a tripling in homicides in 2020 and there was no "defund the police" movement in that city, no reduction in police force -- and also has a Republican mayor and a generally much more conservative take than Seattle.

You're simply reaching for a narrative rather than looking at the data.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by pseudalopex on Friday September 24, 2021 @05:54PM (#28648254)
Seattle cut less than 1% of the 2020 police budget in August.[1] About as much as they increased it from 2019.[2] And your source for the murder spike said other violent crimes decreased.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests-seat...

[2] https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/FinanceDepartm...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by angelzen on Friday September 24, 2021 @06:21PM (#28648440)
https://apnews.com/article/seattle-police-government-and-pol...

> Over 200 Seattle police officers quit amid nation protests, April 28, 2021

> Police Chief Adrian Diaz said Tuesday that the department is in a “staffing crisis” after more than 180 police officers quit last year and another 66 officers left their jobs so far this year, according to police data. “We are at record lows in the city right now. I have about 1,080 deployable officers. This is the lowest I’ve seen our department,” Diaz told KING-TV.

Why would the city lose 20% of its police force in 2 years? It is a mystery. What we know beyond reasonable doubt:

* The loss in deployable officers is not related to the City Council publicly embracing 'defund the police'.

* The loss in deployable officers has very little to do with the mysterious spike in murders that occurred during the same time period.

Obviously anyone that raises absolutely unfounded concerns around those points is just exhibiting hysteric lazy thinking.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by pseudalopex on Saturday September 25, 2021 @06:55PM (#28656881)
You seem determined to ignore murders spiked in places unlike Seattle last year too. And how does your hypothesis explain less total violent crime?

You haven't shown the city council embraced defunding the police either. They cut a fraction of a percent from the police budget last year. Lots of cities had to make cuts to lots of departments. The $5.4 million the article said they fought about this year is under 2%. And it's just what the police spent over budget last year.[1]

[1] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-p...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by angelzen on Monday September 27, 2021 @02:03AM (#28667537)
I am hypothesizing that the answer to the spike in murder is multivariate, with the largest two components being 'defund the police' and lockdowns.

You seem determined to ignore that the City Council did embrace 'defund the police', specifically a veto proof majority did vouch to pass a resolution to slash police funding by 50%. They eventually failed to pass it for whatever political reasons, but the intent is plain and clear. As a result police officers are resigning en-mass to distance themselves from the insanity. Perhaps you have an alternate explanation for the police exodus, please do share.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/22/seattle-poli...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by pseudalopex on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:01PM (#28821012)
You understand the other articles didn't mention anything like that, right? You can't expect other people to try harder than you to find evidence for your claims.

Fort Worth increased police funding and had a larger murder rate increase than Seattle.[1] And I don't think Texas had stricter restrictions than Washington. That's just 1 example.

The summer protests kicked off the discussions about defunding police. Murder rates were higher already.[2]

The AP article said city council policies were 1 of 3 reasons Seattle police said they quit. A so called anti police climate in the city was another. Disagreements with department leadership was the last. It's worth noting they're under federal oversight for excessive force since 2012. They seem unwilling to admit they have a problem.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28643574

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/upshot/murders-rising-cri...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by renewiltord on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:32AM (#28643787)
That’s nothing. You should see the graph of pirates vs global warming.

To think Bluebeard was rescuing us from the deleterious effects of too much CO2 in the air!

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by Zababa on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:46PM (#28649367)
I would bet that there are more pirates now that at pretty much any point in history.
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by renewiltord on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:16AM (#28650923)
They must be causing global warming.
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by nickthemagicman on Friday September 24, 2021 @12:31PM (#28644657)
The graph of illegal immigrants to crime is crazy too!
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by nickthemagicman on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:04AM (#28642499)
Thanks for those references.

Being from New Orleans, a majority black city, its absolutely crazy to me that this is even a debate.

I think these BLM people seriously believe that police do more harm than good in black communities.

And they think that there's no co-orelation between funding and performance for the police.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by angelzen on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:20AM (#28642776)
There is a tragedy of the commons at play, of which 'defund the police' is but the last installment. The local Seattle prosecutor was notorious for years for not prosecuting crime. He recently lost his primary and will likely be replaced from the left by a true 'defund the police' candidate. Seattle hasn't even experienced 'defund the police' to its fullest extent, the worst is yet to come.

> A repeat offender who was released from the King County Jail last weekend after attacking a security guard in Seattle was re-arrested a few hours later for a brutal attack that ended with that victim being hospitalized in intensive care, according to court documents and police.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/assault-suspect-leaves-...

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/abolitionist-candidates-runn...

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by mijkal on Friday September 24, 2021 @04:49PM (#28647637)
'Defund the police' means we reallocate the every-increasing funding for armed agents who want for nothing (not unlike the US military — look at the municipal budget allocations for police vs schools etc) and invest those funds into:

1) Alternative first responder services, such as mental health experts to deescalate incidents that far too often end in tragedy 2) Invest in preventative measures to ensure communities and society at-large is healthy: provide educational, medical, and economic opportunities to materially improve people's lives

And more generally, police in America are long overdue for major reform. 'Qualified immunity' has let officers use violent and lethal force with impunity. They are supposed to be the trained professionals, yet their bar for use of force is _lower_ than an untrained civilian's. The oversight boards are a joke, with no teeth to actually hold police accountable. It's crazy when you think about all the principles espoused by America re: limited gov't and power to the People yet we have this superset class above the law they are meant to enforce. I expect them to be held to a higher standard, and to actually know the laws and people's rights so as not to infringe on them without consequence.

And from talking with a (civilian) criminologist inside SPD who studies this up close, the mentality of cops is disturbing — very 'us-vs-them' — they aren't 'peace officers' who 'protect and serve', but are above us and demand 'respect' and unquestioning compliance above all else. They're the high school bullies equipped with guns and a badge. Their training by US/Israeli ex-military is disturbing because they react to all of us a potential mortal threats rather than as a member of a common community. There's a reason we had Posse Comitatus, but now we've militarized police at the local level, and surprise — they act like it.

I enthusiastically am voting for NTK in the general. The fact is heavily-funded and well-armed police for decades _has not_ and cannot improve the situation anymore than the military occupation in Afghanistan did. Crime is a symptom of more systemic issues, particularly poverty and loss of faith in public institutions. In short, hopelessness and despair.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by dumpsterdiver on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:04PM (#28649445)
You don't have to blame the defunding movement for the rise in homicide rates to wonder if the people in charge thought it through.

The scariest part about having my city's police force defunded (aside from cops not wanting to work here anymore) is the realization that my city council members are strongly influenced by the news cycles. News cycles can be tampered with. Truly, what is the news, but a way to tamper with our opinions? Opinions can be changed through repetition, and rage can be incited seemingly with little effort.

The modern warfront in the United States is our news feed. You can't exactly waltz an army into a country that's packing nukes. What you can do is hire an army to sway public opinion in a country in order to weaken them. Who knows, maybe next time we'll defund our military.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by darthnebula on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:08AM (#28642561)
>>Honestly, blaming it on the "Defund the police" movement is a lazy oversimplification

No, I think ignoring the facts is clinging to your ideology at all costs. Not many cities had official support? You can't be serious.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by iammisc on Friday September 24, 2021 @10:36AM (#28643008)
This is the most disingenuous form of misinformation imaginable. While certainly true that murder is up everywhere, it is not true that it is up the same amount.

As the article says, murder is up more in cities with pop >100k. Under 25k, the murder rate rose 25%. In larger cities, up to 40%.

That is a substantial difference.

No one is claiming that some places had fewer murders than before. People are claiming that policies make differences (in this case, population size is a good correlate with party).

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by xmprt on Friday September 24, 2021 @05:08PM (#28647841)
Why are you correlating population size with party when you can literally look up the voting records of cities?

What's more likely?

1. High population size implies Democratic party policies implies less police funding implies higher murder rate

OR 2. High population size implies higher murder rate (potentially because of higher poor populations or more population density or many other reasons that aren't because of party).

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by iammisc on Friday September 24, 2021 @05:40PM (#28648136)
> High population size implies Democratic party policies implies less police funding implies higher murder rate

Democratic party politics are correlated with higher population size. This is not controversial.

A high population size ought to correlate with more overall murders, but a similar murder rate. Moreover, in many countries, urban areas are less violent.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by xmprt on Monday September 27, 2021 @07:31PM (#28677440)
I agree with your first statement. However, this is one case where we don't have to make any guesses. City voting records are public.

If you actually checked, then you'll see that Democratic and Republican controlled cities have seen an uptick in murder rate. In some cases, Republicans have a higher increase. So this isn't an issue with any particular party.

> in many countries, urban areas are less violent

This might be because of better mental healthcare, less drug/gang related violence, better gun control, or a variety of factors. If America had the same laws as other countries then this discrepancy would be strange however the US has been very slow at getting up to the current standards that most developed countries have adopted.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by nickthemagicman on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:21AM (#28641951)
No actually you're wrong.

Believe it or not, there's a direct co-orelation between police having resources available to fight crime and reduced crime!

Crazy right?

https://archive.is/5fIqM

But we can't eliminate the possibility that all those thousands of new murders were all done by racist police officers.

Has anyone looked into this?

Could be a huge story.

Wouldn't want anyone to get the crazy idea that police actually do good things for black communities.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by eurasiantiger on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:24AM (#28641996)
How does that article prove your claim?
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by nickthemagicman on Friday September 24, 2021 @09:26AM (#28642016)
Well I'll let the headline of the Washington post article do the 'splainin'

"Cities Reverse Defunding the Police Amid Rising Crime"

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by eurasiantiger on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:41AM (#28643926)
Your proposition:

1. Cities increase police funding in response to increased crime

2. Therefore, decreasing police funding increases crime.

However, 2. does not follow from 1, since many other factors affect crime rates, from legislation to enforcement and from social issues to societal issues.

In fact, even the inverse of 2. does not follow from 1: increasing police funding does not decrease crime rates.

If you disagree, please provide an academic source for the direct causal relationship between police funding and crime rate.

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by nickthemagicman on Friday September 24, 2021 @12:02PM (#28644229)
There's academia and then there's real life and in real life the leaders are realizing Defunding the Police is a stupid idea.

Can you explain why these leaders with highly paid staff of analysts who have way more knowledge and data, are doing this?

EDIT: while you're downvoting me, be sure to downvote the leaders and news media who lied to you as well.

"""In New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio said he would reinstate $92 million for a new precinct after scrapping the project last summer. The mayor of Baltimore, who led efforts as a city councilman to cut the police budget by $22 million last year, recently proposed a $27 million increase.

After attacks on Asian-Americans and a rise in homicides in Oakland, Calif., city lawmakers in April restored $3.3 million of the $29 million in police cuts, and the mayor is now proposing to increase the department’s budget by $24 million. Los Angeles’s mayor has proposed an increase of about $50 million after the city cut $150 million from its police department last year."""

Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by jbboehr on Friday September 24, 2021 @08:50PM (#28649381)
"I told you so" never felt so good.
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by eurasiantiger on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:45AM (#28651313)
What’s this army of dumb doing on HN?
Re:Murder rate rose by almost 30% in 2020 in the US by floor2 on Friday September 24, 2021 @01:54PM (#28645706)
Crime doesn't really work the way you're suggesting.

Someone robbing houses is directly going to cause a massive uptick in violent crime. What if the resident is home and tries to defend themselves? The victim (of the home invasion) might shoot the invader in self-defense but be charged with murder anyway. Or the robber might kill the homeowner during a struggle even if they only intended to steal property initially.

Plus, people aren't inherently "good" and "bad" or "criminals and non-criminals". There's complexity to how being a victim of crime can lead a person to commit other crimes, how "non-violent" crimes can quickly become violent, etc.

Blaming "Defund the police" is kinda short-sighted, but certainly there have been massive shifts in how police see themselves, their jobs and their communities and how people see and interact with the police, and that those changes are part of the cascade of changes that lead to increases in murder rates.