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Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by fallingknife on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:56AM (#28630078)
Your numbers are off. You are comparing China's total debt, public and private, to just the US federal government's debt. For total debt China and the US actually have very similar numbers. http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/CHINA-DEBT-HOUSEHO...
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by rsj_hn on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:37PM (#28631543)
I would reply that your numbers are way off, since in an economy where by far the biggest borrowers are state owned enteprises, then you must count the debt of these enterprises as government debt even though according to NIPA data as cited it is considered private debt.

Here we are talking about all the largest borrowers in China being government owned: China Mobile, ICBC, China Railway, China National Petroleum, SAIC Motor, Sinopec Group, etc.

See https://fortune.com/2015/07/22/china-global-500-government-o...

Given the great difficulty truly privately owned businesses face in obtaining credit, and how most of them need to go to the shadow financial system, the bulk of private debt doesn't even show up in these measures, and the bulk of what is officially considered private debt should be counted as public debt.

This creates all sorts of problems for China because if there is a banking crisis, then the banks, which are government owned, are lending money to state owned enterprises that are not allowed to fail. This is why you get the zombie bank problem in China - it's different than the situation in Japan. In Japan, the problem was real estate zombie loans, but in China the problem is zombie loans to politically connected state monopolies as well as individual real estate. China can perhaps say "screw the households" but it can't say "screw Sinopec".

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by arbuge on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:16PM (#28632132)
> I would reply that your numbers are way off, since in an economy where by far the biggest borrowers are state owned enteprises, then you must count the debt of these enterprises as government debt even though according to NIPA data as cited it is considered private debt.

It would seem to me that the amount of additional debt you could consider the government as having taken on by virtue of these being SOEs would however be compensated by the fact that they're SOEs... i.e. the government also has equity ownership in them. The asset would somewhat or entirely cancel out the liability as it where.

The equivalent enterprises in the US aren't owned by the governemnt. Less debt, for sure, but less equity too.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by lumost on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:32PM (#28632364)
At this point you’d be looking at a house of cards in a dark room. It’s impossible to fairly evaluate an SOE in the case the SOE both has a pseudo monopoly and the government controls the currency.

The only bound on these SOEs raising prices would be civil unrest, so the question is whether the government is keeping prices low because of policy or because they cannot politically raise prices. The government can also choose to devalue the currency to reduce outstanding liabilities.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by nerbert on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:31PM (#28632351)
An insightful article by SCMP, can't say that this hasn't been vetted by the CCP: https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3135883/c...
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by PeterisP on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:33PM (#28634945)
"The asset would somewhat or entirely cancel out the liability as it where." > no, at least not for the purposes of the risk of bad debt; because if that debt is bad, then the equity asset is worthless as well.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by rsj_hn on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:15PM (#28633851)
> i.e. the government also has equity ownership in them.

So there are two points to make here.

1. How to measure the debt burden

There is a reason debt sustainability is measured in terms of debt service to revenue metrics as opposed to things like debt to book value, as it's much harder to sell off your company to retire the debt.

I mean, yes, China could decide to privatize all these companies and then wash their hands of the debt. But I think it is a matter of strategic importance for the CCP to control these companies. I could be wrong.

2. How to determine whether a given burden is sustainable

The larger point, though, is that it's never a problem for the Chinese government to run out of money, anymore than it's a problem for the US government. Both governments print their own money. The issue is one of economic management, e.g. is the current policy one that promotes the growth of the chinese economy in a sustainable way? This has nothing to do with running out of money as you can print money. Money is just paper used to get people to be productive. It's a just prop. The real economy is what matters. When people worry about debt, you have to translate their worries into something to do with the real economy. A debt crisis means that the pie of real resources is smaller than people thought it was. You thought you had $100 in the bank, but you only have $50. That's a big deal. The revelation that the pie is smaller is a real economy thing, and it is true even if the banking crisis is averted. E.g. you can tax people and give the money to the banks and the banks will be made whole. That's still recognizing that the pie is smaller. So when we talk about the banking crisis, we do not mean that the government will run out of money, what we mean is that the chinese people will have to bear the cost of reduced real consumption than what they had planned when they were given bonds with a promised interest rate which they thought would pay off.

And there is a structural problem to bailing out failing businesses in terms of misallocation of real resources, as politically connected bureacracies get money but innovative companies do not. That means more real resources are wasted in China. As more real resources are wasted, the economy becomes less efficient and the chinese standard of living either declines or grows more slowly than it should. That is what is at stake here. It is also a problem in the west, where we keep subsidizing politically popular companies at the expense of making the economy more inefficient. This is the main temptation of letting government control the financial system and print its own money.

Balance sheets and sustainability metrics are just bookkeeping to track how many real resources are being wasted. China (and the US) have an enormous amount of real resources to waste, so we are not going to run out of things to screw up any time soon. But if the standard of living does not increase fast enough for people's expectations, it could cause political unrest for those who enjoy spending other people's money on their favorite causes.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by worrycue on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:29AM (#28630625)
I heard it’s actually quite hard to gauge debt in China due to “shadow debt” that isn’t on the books. So things might actually be worse than it seems.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by PaywallBuster on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:55AM (#28630979)
indeed, and the state is mixed up everywhere. Where does public and private end?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by threevox on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:40AM (#28630769)
That should surprise exactly no one, given how unreliable Chinese official figures are
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by bildung on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:48AM (#28630883)
That isn't what shadow debt / shadow banking means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banking_system
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by eunos on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:12AM (#28630328)
High private debt might be caused by relatively high saving rate and weak equity market in China. So instead of buying stocks they are buying bond.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by frankbreetz on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:15AM (#28630379)
The rate of change seems to be significantly higher for China Compared to the US, maybe this has to with growth rate of their GDP, but if they can't keep up with GDP growth, they will be in trouble
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by xyzzy21 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:18AM (#28630423)
This is certainly underestimated by many who've never seen a differential equation in their life and probably can't pronounce it either.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by Ajay-p on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:06AM (#28630233)
Please, what this mean in simpler terms?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by bserge on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:44PM (#28631656)
People would afford fewer imports, pretty much.

You'd think "China makes everything" but they do need raw materials and fuel. They also import a lot of food, not sure how necessary it is.

So the smart thing to do is invest heavily into poor but resource rich countries in Africa.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by topkai22 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:15AM (#28630378)
Public debt = all loans to the government of a country

US Federal Debt = all loans to the US Federal Government (which excludes loans to state and local governments).

Private Debt = all loans to non-governmental entities (individuals/businesses/corporations) in a country.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by xyzzy21 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:19AM (#28630440)
In China there really isn't a difference - the Communist Party is partial owner of ALL "private" corporations.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by eunos on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:29AM (#28630636)
If party owned Evergrande they don't need to have three red lines drama
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by christophilus on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:15AM (#28630375)
No one knows, but I think it means we're going to see a massive deleveraging event in both China and the US. But maybe we can all keep kicking the can indefinitely. Who knows?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by beerandt on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:42AM (#28630790)
If Chinese are looking for alternatives to collapsing domestic investment, I don't see how they do that at the scale they need to without leaning further into US bonds, whether directly or via Chinese government using it to back up domestic offerings.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by tevon on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:52PM (#28631781)
Do you think this would put us (the US) in a stronger strategic position going forward?

It seems like the music has to stop eventually for Chinese growth, especially since the differential between "real" GDP and reported GDP is likely larger than even this seems.

If they lean into US bonds, wouldn't that weaken their strategic position? I'm not sure they'd be willing to do so.