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Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by nostrademons on Monday September 20, 2021 @06:01PM (#28599581)
As long as most people in the U.S. buy houses with 30-year fixed mortgages, the total cost of a house will be 30 * 12 * monthly mortgage payment. When interest rates are low but home prices are high, they don't pay any more over the life of the loan. (Someone who buys when rates are high but prices are low does have the option to refinance, though, which is not available to someone who buys when prices are high.) The change in interest rates effectively shifts which portion of the buyer's income goes to the lender vs. the seller.

This is similar to how increases in local incomes are actually captured by landlords rather than workers. If housing is scarce and people need it to live, owners of that housing have the bargaining power to raise prices to capture available income.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by bink on Monday September 20, 2021 @07:51PM (#28600507)
It's true that a homeowner who pays a higher principal and a lower rate isn't really at a disadvantage if they stay in the home for 30 years (with a 30 year loan). But if rates go up a bit as soon as they need to sell they're going to find far fewer buyers.

And their neighbors will have already found out they had to sell for lower amounts, resulting in some others walking away instead of bringing money to the table at a sale. At thus begins the downward cycle.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by imtringued on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @07:18AM (#28603883)
The point is that interest rates don't affect the cost of housing which is determined by monthly payment * 360 months, they affect the resale value of housing. If interest rates go up the resale value of your house goes down.

If people bet on the resale value of housing to go up they also necessarily bet on lower interest rates.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by OJFord on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:27PM (#28600710)
Do you really have 30 year fixed rates? They must be ridiculous?
Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by topkai22 on Monday September 20, 2021 @08:59PM (#28600927)
That’s the standard in the US. Current rates are about 2.75%, although they went below 2.5% for a bit earlier this year.

Those rates are for 20% down, good credit primary residences purchases. Rates for investment or vacation properties are generally about 1-2 percentage points higher.

Mortgage rates in the US are indirectly and directly subsidized by the government across a huge spectrum of programs- See FHA loans, VA loans, etc. However one of the biggest contributors to low 30 year prices are the government backed corporations like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that purchase mortgage debt and repackage it into mortgage backed securities. Way too much the go into here, but a lot of the 2008 financial crisis has its roots in the policies that created Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. Regardless, they have proven a fairly effective way to keep mortgage rates low.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by OJFord on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:21AM (#28603037)
Interesting. Higher than here currently of course - I was recently quoted 1.16% for a five year fix - but I've never heard of being able to lock in something pretty reasonable for the full term/30y like that.

But are lower shorter term fixes also available? Presumably the 30y fix is a pretty stable rate, and just acts as an upper bound? So why not go with anything available that's lower, with that as a worst case fallback that's unlikely to be materially different after x years?

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by topkai22 on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @11:37AM (#28606110)
Yes, you can get a shorter term loan and have a lower interest rate- 15 years is also reasonably common, and fixed rate products exist at 20 and 10 years respectively. Adjustable rate and 5/1 or 7/1 products exist as well, but they aren’t as popular or encouraged by regulators, as they played a role in the 2008 financial crisis.

As to why go for a 30 year loan instead of a lower interest rate 15 year the answer is basically cash flow and opportunity cost. A 15 year loan may result in paying less interest, but the monthly interest + principal payments are more. Your average borrower will qualify for a larger 30 year loan because the analysis is based on their ability to afford the monthly payments based on their current income.

Even people who can easily afford a 15 year loan will choose a 30 year because the 0.5-1% interest rate is lower than the expected returns of something like stocks, so it makes sense to stay leveraged. There are also tax benefits to paying interest (but not principal) on loans, but these are way less important since the trump tax reforms.

And I just reread your question, and I think you are asking about 5/1 loans. The reason there is that a) interest rates so fluctuate, a lot- they were above 9% in 1991. With a 30 year, you can choose when you refinance (there is no penalty to paying off a home loan early in the US) whereas with a 5/1 you might find yourself getting forced into a higher interest rate- potentially much higher to the point it’s unaffordable. 5/1s also actually have a higher interest rate than 15 years currently, as they aren’t considered “conforming” to various US government programs.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by OJFord on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:59PM (#28607069)
I didn't mean shorter term loan, just shorter fix. I think the answer is it just works surprisingly differently here (UK) vs. there (US).

Here a normal thing to do is something like 30 year loan on a 1/2/3/5 year fixed rate, after which it would be some relatively horrendous variable rate [^] - but you don't pay that, you just switch to a new fixed rate at the same or other provider (technically remortgaging).

So you're leveraged for the full 30 (or whatever) year term regardless, but you make some decision about how 'good' you think the rates are at the moment and what direction they're moving in (and pretend your adversary isn't a massive bank with a lot more information and smart people behind it) and fix for accordingly many years (more costing a slightly worse rate of course).

[^] - you could also just choose a variable rate to begin with, but that's not really relevant here, I just mean I think typically the rate you'd drop to after the end of the fixed rate would be worse than that, as in you're going to pay more spread over whatever it's tracking.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by ryandrake on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @12:22PM (#28606646)
> Even people who can easily afford a 15 year loan will choose a 30 year because the 0.5-1% interest rate is lower than the expected returns of something like stocks, so it makes sense to stay leveraged. There are also tax benefits to paying interest (but not principal) on loans, but these are way less important since the trump tax reforms.

On the other hand, it probably reduces risk to take the 15 year loan if you can afford the payments, in order to more aggressively build home equity and shield yourself from a sudden shock/downturn. If rates shoot up after, say, 5 years (and home values drop 20%), someone who's made 5 years of payments on a 30 year loan will be way underwater, whereas someone who's made 5 years of payments on a 15 year loan still has positive equity.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by topkai22 on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @03:59PM (#28621051)
Don’t discount how rare 20% price drops in housing are historically - a nationwide 20% price decline has only happened once since 1951 (where I could find statistics start) and even then would only have applied for purchases in a 1 year window. House prices are historically high across almost any metric you choose right now, so we could see another incident of that, but it’s also possible we could see real house prices depreciate with inflation while holding nominal value.
Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by Gh0stRAT on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @01:33AM (#28613346)
Homes are massive, illiquid assets with high transaction costs and (unless you have many of them) are poorly diversified. I'd even argue it makes more sense to look at a primary home as a forced savings plan rather than as an investment.
Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by topkai22 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:21AM (#28625186)
I disagree. It’s too big a chunk of people’s net worth to not analyze like a financial investment, if only to make one stop and think about them opportunity cost of buying at various price points and how much you are really spending to consume living in a nicer house (because there is definitely a consumption angle.)

A primary residence even makes a good component of diversified portfolio so long as it is not the sole or dominant aspect of that portfolio.

I understand your point about it being a "forced savings plan", but with 5-10x leverage on most loans even a housing market that appreciates at inflation can provide significant returns (or losses) in the long run.

Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by oblio on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @02:55AM (#28602629)
Europe has them. They're not ridiculous. 1.5% fixed for 25 years is somewhat common.
Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by gspr on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @03:11AM (#28602716)
Where?!
Re:Home Price to Income Ratio by Mvandenbergh on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @04:41AM (#28603119)
According to the ECB, https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecb.wp2322~0ed0879d... :

"FRMs are dominant in Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands, while ARMs are prevailing in Austria, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain"

UK is also ARM but not included as not in euro zone.

Note that at least in the NL market which is the only one I know personally, lots of people do get shorter term fixes compared to the US where almost every mortgage is fixed for its lifetime.