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Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by civilized on Sunday September 19, 2021 @07:19PM (#28588855)
A lot of people seem fundamentally ridiculous these days. Silly, frivolous, unserious, out of touch with reality. They should know better, and they don't care that they should know better. They're motivated by something else.

I don't know if that's a new thing or not, but that's how it has seemed to me during this pandemic.

Quite a few people have gone without an easy, safe, miraculously effective vaccine - a marvel of the latest science, freely available at their fingertips - and literally died. As far as I can tell, their deepest motivation to do this was to express their distrust of the establishment and/or stick it to their political opponents.

In a "lol nothing matters" world, all that matters to these people is whether they get to stick it to the man. Nothing bad can really happen, so no real thought is needed to stay safe. It's fine to just believe the first entertainingly outrageous quack theory that flatters your sentiments or ideology or tribe.

It's as if they were interrupted by a gunman while watching TV, and made no motion to defend themselves, assuming the gun pointed at their heads was part of the show.

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by TheBlight on Sunday September 19, 2021 @08:14PM (#28589175)
I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.
Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by civilized on Sunday September 19, 2021 @08:21PM (#28589208)
Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots.

And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy.

Not everyone with a streak of independent thought on COVID is a fool, but essentially all the vaccine haters are. Drunk on sentimental nonsense and ideological fantasy, with just enough fact mixed in to make the toxic brew superficially plausible. The 1/6 rioters were much the same.

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by chitowneats on Sunday September 19, 2021 @08:47PM (#28589338)
If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines.

Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise?

Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions?

The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized, even.

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by civilized on Sunday September 19, 2021 @09:04PM (#28589439)
I wouldn't tell my aunt that it's idiotic to blindly believe spike protein sheds from the vaccinated and harms people, or that VAERS has recorded thousands of vaccine-caused deaths, because she read it on FB. But I do think it's idiotic to believe that, and every once in a while I'm going to say so.

It's not just some innocent difficulty with finding the signal in the noise. It's sentimental, ideological delusion, and it's rotten to the core. And deep down, I believe many of them do know better, even if they stopped caring years ago.

I won't pointlessly anger them by saying so to their faces, but I also won't patronize them by pretending otherwise.

[dead]
Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by civilized on Sunday September 19, 2021 @09:14PM (#28589483)
Ivermectin is safe in humans, and it isn't difficult to find that out.

I'm ignoring your speculation about me and plan to continue to do so, so let's not bore each other.

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by chitowneats on Sunday September 19, 2021 @09:17PM (#28589497)
Ivermectin is safe. It's an anti-parasitic, not an anti-viral. Is it effective against covid? There are very smart people out there who have serious concerns with the primary study Ivermectin proponents point to showing effectiveness against this virus.

In all fairness, my entire qualm with you is the way you've needlessly personalized this discussion. We could have discussed the issues at hand directly. Alas.

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by ipaddr on Monday September 20, 2021 @12:06AM (#28590301)
What I have never understood is if you don't want the vaccine because the long term studies are due in 2023 what subset of this group is pro Ivermectin? Ivermectin used on humans is a new area with fewer studies.
Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by Mountain_Skies on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:00AM (#28590504)
No. Ivermectin use is humans is very well understood and has been for quite some time. What isn't well understood is what is the level of effectiveness of Ivermectin in preventing the spread of covid and treating the symptoms of the disease. It's an absolutely ridiculous statement to say Ivermectin in humans is not well studied. Whoever told you that had an agenda and you should be very skeptical of anything else they tell you. There is no equivalence in uncertainty between Ivermectin and the mRNA covid treatments.
Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by a_conservative on Monday September 20, 2021 @03:39PM (#28597891)
Billions of doses of Ivermectin have been taken by humans.

https://www.merck.com/stories/mectizan/

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by sudosysgen on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:55AM (#28593809)
Ivermectin is not safe in humans at the quantities required for it's observed antiviral effect against COVID.
Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by nradov on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:24PM (#28596270)
At least one small clinical study found that ivermectin was clinically effective at a safe dosage of 150 μg/kg. More research is needed to determine if this is a real effect or just random chance.

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/6/989

Re:An appeal for an objective, open, transparent debate re: ... by sudosysgen on Monday September 20, 2021 @01:32PM (#28596344)
150ug/kg is the typical dose for deworming effect.

The antiviral effects were found in vitro at, if I remember correctly, around 8x the concentration that would be found in typical treatment.