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Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by credit_guy on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:50AM (#28577136)
Norway is wealthy because of its strong institutions. Nigeria and Venezuela have more oil, Azerbaijan and Libya too, but for them it's a curse not a blessing. Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets. If oil were to become worthless tomorrow, Norway would continue to do quite well. After all, Denmark has only a tenth of Norway's oil reserves, and about the same population. That doesn't make them ten times poorer, in fact their GDP per capita is only 20% lower.
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by lucb1e on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:39PM (#28577479)
> Norway has the rule of law, low corruption, people have confidence in their government, and the government looks out for the people. With or without oil, these things are tremendous assets.

I think you missed that they have tons of hydro power available which is iirc cheaper or at least on par with burning fossil fuel, so they don't even need oil. Cheap power basically runs down their hills. (Similar to how in Iceland the hot water just spawns out of the ground. Yes I'm a little jealous.)

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by rootsudo on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:53AM (#28577158)
This, but it's also agency too. People in those "other" countries never grew up in a safe, stable and reliable society.

What they see is the old system of explore and exploit.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by anovikov on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:55AM (#28577170)
That's right, but here goes the question: colonialism provided a way to "export" safe, stable and reliable societies. And people rejected it. Was it a mistake?
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by DoingIsLearning on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:50PM (#28577555)
> colonialism provided a way to "export" safe, stable and reliable societies.

I had to read this a few times to be sure this really was the point you were trying to make.

One of many examples on how this is absolutely abhorrently untrue:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free...

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by pydry on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:00PM (#28577196)
Colonialism certainly liked to think it was "civilizing the savages" but that was far from its true intended purpose or effect.
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by space_fountain on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:59AM (#28577194)
I think most people would say colonialism did a poor job of explaining safety at least. Instead it was often powered by racism and subjugation. We do desperately need to find a way to help countries develop, but on the balance colonialism doesn’t seem to be it
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by throwaway210222 on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:07PM (#28577249)
> We do desperately need to find a way to help countries develop.

Hold our currencies.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by space_fountain on Saturday September 18, 2021 @04:53PM (#28579206)
In that the solution is to give them money? Because they doesn't seem to have worked so well either? Or do you mean that really foreign policy is just about keeping the dollar dominate
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by throwaway210222 on Sunday September 19, 2021 @02:25AM (#28582131)
It means that every midlle-clas person, and every foreign and local company in the developing world is obsessed with "getting their money out".

And this rational fear is becuase our currencies continue to devalue.

You did ask.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by space_fountain on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @01:31PM (#28607419)
No that's interesting and seems possible. I'm not sure which way the causality works. I think I haven't really seen great examples of isolationism working for development, but maybe some combination of capital controls and confidence in the countries trajectory are helpful
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by rootsudo on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:03PM (#28577223)
That's another fun conversation of governance, rights and nation building.

Which, ironically has plagued South America for quite a while - The reason Colombia and Venezuela have similar flags is they had the same wars and fight for freedom. They freed themselves from Spain and then became the institutions we know today. Corrupt, semi corrupt nation states, not on a national level but influence can be bought.

Africa no idea, but that's the thing, was it fully rejection?

Not every country can be the United States in terms of fighting for freedom, gaining independence and being successful. You can still go into many parts of New England and see lots of British influence.

Also Florida, and see much Spanish influence.

It isn't as much as "export" but building, having a plan and the problem then (and possibly event today) is that the people who are successful, ethical, moral and such are living comfortable lives.

Prisoners were most of the people that were on the Spanish ships that sailed to Venezuela and Colombia and built much of that, alongside prisoners were political refugees such as Jewish people and people who were destitute. Religious political refugees too, bad enough stuff but not exactly criminal.

You can kinda align it today with the people who are ground on troops with USA in AFghanistan, where we exported our way of life for 20 years.

Overnight, erased. The people there didn't want it, we didn't leave anyone part of the military behind and whomever had some influence slid into power or fled for their life.

--

I don't even know where to begin w/ Africa, I'm not up to date on their History or such besides some/much used to belong to the French.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by selimthegrim on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:06PM (#28577245)
Algeria and Guinea rejected it.
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by mogadsheu on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:27PM (#28577384)
They’ve managed to maintain their wealth in social order largely because they’re neighbors of the British and friendly with them. And they’re part of NATO.

When Philips struck at Ekofisk some very smart people in the US/UK came to help them develop.

Norway was (by their own account) a country of scattered fishing villages.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by hanche on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:56PM (#28577592)
> Norway was (by their own account) a country of scattered fishing villages.

By whose account, again? I grew up in Norway just before the oil boom started, and I never thought of the country that way. We had lumber, we had cheap hydroelectric power that we used to process aluminium and make fertiliser, and we were practically a global superpower in terms of ocean shipping. True, we weren’t rich in the way we are now, far from it – but weren’t that poor either.

A big part of our success as an oil producing nation is that we weren’t simply letting the (mostly) American oil producers just come in and do as they pleased; instead, we insisted on building our own expertise and running the business on our own terms. We hit many snags along the way, but it has paid off in the long run.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by londons_explore on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:53PM (#28577573)
Could the fact Norway's oil is offshore be a big part of this difference?

Only the best prepared attackers can wrestle control of those oilfields from the government and their delegates.

Whereas if oil is over land, all it takes is a few determined people to shut down production for weeks.

[dead]
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by slibhb on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:36PM (#28577446)
> Nigeria, Venezuela, Azerbaijan and Libya are corrupt because the US/UK/others install corrupt regimes and topple democratic ones.

There's no clear explanation for why some countries are rich and prosperous and free while others are not. Anyone claiming to have such a theory is bloviating.

Futher, you assume that the default is democracy and prosperity and we must explain why some countries lack that. But that's not the default! The default is corruption, privation, and instability. Those were certainly the conditions preceeding colonialism. The real question is how to escape that, and we have no particularly good theories there either.

Finally, the idea that certain countries have no agency is insulting and unhelpful.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by no_butterscotch on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:28PM (#28577388)
I'm not disputing that Western nations have meddled in these countries too much.

But it seems like you're completely absolving these countries and peoples of all responsibility for their country and themselves, that in and of itself seems like the Western elites' "these people can't help themselves" approach.

The reality is likely a mix somewhere between the two, variable for each country and circumstance.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by tomtimtall on Saturday September 18, 2021 @03:01PM (#28578412)
Yes, It’s a mix of these people “not being able to help themselves” to fight off foreign government interference, and the foreign government interference. Similar to how people who get mugged are partly to blame for not being able to fight off the mugger.

It doesn’t matter how great a nation you have, if US comes along and decides to put in place a dictator to secure low oil prices.

If US invaded Norway tomorrow and put a corrupt religious fundamentalist in power, there is absolutely no way you could blame it on the country, the religion or the color of the skin of he people living there.

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by foobarbazbarfoo on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:05PM (#28577669)
> A perfect example is Iraq -- the US installed Saddam Hussein, then armed him, let me rule the country to despair, then the US spent two decades removing him and re-destroying the country. All the while, cheap to free oil was extracted from the nation for the benefit of western powers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme

As an Iraqi I am tired of people absolving us of agency as if the US just walks in and installs rulers left and right. There was no let there be Saddam, there were a lot of power grabs, internal struggle, and consolidation that happens before someone like Saddam becomes Saddam, and the most a western power can do is provide funds or international legitimacy

Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by Jensson on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:21PM (#28577331)
Do you really argue that Muammar Gaddafi was democratically elected? He ruled as a dictator for 40 years until the Arab spring toppled his regime. He didn't come to power thanks to western influence, rather his coup was based on the anti west group.
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by Y_Y on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:06PM (#28577679)
Who installed the corrupt regime in Azerbaijan? And why do you not include Swedish and Danish control of Norway?
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by mirekrusin on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:22PM (#28577338)
What about Brazil?
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by dundarious on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:35PM (#28577445)
The Jakarta Method came to Brazil to install a military dictatorship, then after that ended, didn’t they have good growth under Lula and more questionably under Dilma?
Re:Norway is wealthy because of oil. Can it give up fossil f... by dcgudeman on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:37PM (#28577457)
The U.S. did not "install" Saddam Hussein lol.