News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Thursday September 16, 2021 @08:34PM (#28559650)
> I winced when you started the comparison with Brazil and Mexico.

What about Greenland?

> ...anybody who's visited Mexico knows not to go random places alone.

It's the same in the US, and basically every country in the world. Some places are dangerous, others aren't.

> ...if Brazil and Mexico are our points of comparison, we're... not in a situation I'd want to be in, to put it diplomatically.

Put it undiplomatically. What exactly do you mean by that? Draw me a picture with crayons, I want to understand clearly what this means.

An important point in the comment you replied to was that maybe demand for firearms is the result of the crime rate and not the cause. Care to address that?

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by sho_hn on Thursday September 16, 2021 @08:49PM (#28559746)
> It's the same in the US, and basically every country in the world. Some places are dangerous, others aren't.

No, it's really not. I spent a number of years living in Seoul, and you can have a 25 million people metro area with virtually no areas you wouldn't go to alone at night. They may exist, somewhere, but you really have to struggle to find them. That plus no loud and aggressive people on the streets, basically never having to feel guarded or adjusting your walking path to avoid that one sketchy person.

US cities can be such stressful, on-guard, subtly "stand your ground"/"toughen up" experiences in comparison sometimes. It's draining, really just wasted energy, and as a man, makes me behave in wasy I don't actually want to.

Culture really matters. Weapon laws really matter. And national pride in places and spaces that just simply don't shape up well is something to resist.

I have a feeling that the entire "arm the populace" mindset and everything that goes along with it (the lack of interest in consensus-building displayed by wanting to maintain an exit from it, etc.) is much more likely to generate the sort of politics and politicians that would ever require civilian I arms use.

States can certainly go bad in many ways. South Korea managed to impeach its most recent bad President through peaceful protest alone (search "Park Geun-Hye protests") with basically not even a punch thrown, however.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by NoImmatureAdHom on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:44PM (#28560213)
Idk why the downvotes for orangepurple, that is basically correct. Heterogeneous societies are much harder to govern. Different kinds of people living side-by-side fight. The calmest, most in-control societies around the world are homogeneous. SK, NK, and Japan are the most ethnically homogeneous countries on earth.

Oh, and SK is an oligarchy. Essentially everything is run by a handful of families (those who run the chaebol), everybody knows about it, and it's been the status quo for years. Not that that's necessarily bad, though it isn't ideal. SK has risen from destruction to dictatorship to mostly-rich-and-democratic.

I disagree that weapon laws really matter, they matter maybe a little. Most of the variance in murder rates is more productively explained by things like homogeneity, rich-poor divide, cultures of violence, etc.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by MagnumOpus on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:49AM (#28563258)
> Different kinds of people living side-by-side fight. The calmest, most in-control societies around the world are homogeneous.

Switzerland. 3-4 ethnic groups with entirely different languages as well as quite different wealth levels, managing to go without massacres and civil wars for hundreds of years. (So that their different wealth levels now look like the difference between "well-off" and "filthy rich" to their neighbours...)

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by NoImmatureAdHom on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:25AM (#28565202)
Good comment. They're all white europeans and they're physically separated from each other by geography, which makes this importantly not like the U.S. for example. We can see small examples of this in cities that have longstanding (hundreds of years +) minority populations. It's not like they're mixed together, what always happens is there is a "Jewish Quarter", "Chinatown", etc. More like micro-states within a state.

edit: Maybe people thing "Good comment" was sarcastic? I genuinely meant it was a productive addition to the discussion :-) Also, I'm not just making this up. There's significant scholarship on the question.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:47PM (#28560238)
> Culture really matters

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The cultures of SK and the US are very, very different. Particularly, south Koreans are all united by being under the constant threat of devastating war as long as almost any of them have been alive.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by sho_hn on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:56PM (#28560715)
Which is also something that you rarely feel in daily life, although it does certainly have impact on society (mainly in terms of a period of mandatory army service for young men, similar to many European countries). I'd say the War on Terror or the Cold War had a lot more presence in the US.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by NoImmatureAdHom on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:34AM (#28565951)
IDK, there are scares every so often in SK. I remember being told to carry my passport and a couple thousand dollars in cash + memorize your color-coded evac route by the Embassy during one such crisis.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by sho_hn on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:14AM (#28573854)
"By the Embassy" is the critical point there though. Did your Korean friends?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by inter_netuser on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:04PM (#28560753)
Gun laws don't matter.

South Korea homicide rates are 300% higher than Czech Republic, which is a shall issue country, and most permits are for concealed carry.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by orangepurple on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:35PM (#28560127)
Seoul is a collectivist society without "diversity." You can't compare it to the US. Shootings are highly concentrated in "diverse" neighborhoods.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by disgruntledphd2 on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:08AM (#28562588)
diverse == poor, right?

I find it very interesting that race is so front and center in the US, while class hides behind it and rarely gets mentioned.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by orangepurple on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:30AM (#28566626)
No, it is meant in the true general sense of the term
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by disgruntledphd2 on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:59AM (#28567006)
So, you are claiming that diverse (what does that even mean, racial, social, intellectual diversity?) neighbourhoods have more crime.

That's an interesting theory, are there sources which I can read up on around this theory and the evidence for it?

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:17PM (#28559957)
> What about Greenland?

It's not a country and it has a very low population (less than 60k). Small regions make bad statistical samples.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:32PM (#28560111)
OK, how about Argentina?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:16PM (#28560483)
What about Canada, Australia, and New Zealand?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:25PM (#28560542)
Because I can't help but get the sense that using those countries, culturally very distinct from the US, is cherry picking st best. If the "legal firearms lead to more violence and crime, and if we restrict comparison to new world highly developed countries this still holds" argument is to stand, then the comparison has to apply to every country with firearm restrictions, not just a couple. If it doesn't apply across the board then that is an indicator that culture plays an outsized role and legal status of firearms does not.

So I answered your question, now your turn, what about Argentina?

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:41PM (#28560638)
Because Canada is the closest country on earth to the US culturally and Australia and New Zealand are not far behind. Also, poverty tends to increase crime and CA/AU/NZ are closer to US economically as well, while Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, and South Africa are far behind. If you want to pick one country to compare it to the US, it only makes sense to pick Canada. Argentina is very far down the list.

The main difference between Canada and US (and to a great extent Australia and New Zealand) are not cultural or economical. The main differences are in access to firearms. I fully expect Canada's murder rate to rise to US levels if US gun laws were adopted here.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:03PM (#28560748)
There are a few very significant cultural/economic differences between the USA and Canada/Austrial/NZ.

The biggest one is that only the USA has a legacy of slavery. The USA has much higher population density as well. The USA is also somewhat more economically unequal than the other 3. The USA is more diverse than any of the other 3, especially Canada and Australia.

These factors might play a role in gun violence.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by ikr678 on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:19PM (#28560822)
The US is the least diverse of those countries. Australia has 30%(2019) of foreign born resident's to NZ's 27.4%(2018),Canada's 20%(2016) and the US's 13.7%(2018)
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:34PM (#28560909)
"Foreign born" is really not the best judge of diversity in this context imo. I would instead look at the fraction of population that has European ancestry.

I have not seen many statistics linking foreign-born residents to higher crime, but locally-born oppressed minority populations (e.g. Black, Aboriginal, Native, Maori) are disproportionately represented in the criminal justice system due to ongoing legacies of systemic violence.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by mpweiher on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:36AM (#28561991)
Generally, when you correct for poverty, those differences disappear.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by laverya on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:34AM (#28565288)
I thought the whole point of the ongoing systemic racism debates in the US was that even after correcting for poverty, African Americans still had worse outcomes on essentially every metric from college graduation to murder rate?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by mpweiher on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:23PM (#28567346)
While there are almost certainly small variations, the high order bit is economics. By a wide margin.

This is almost invariably left out of the equation when these things are reported.

Just like the so-called "gender wage gap", which is at best a "gender earnings gap", because pay is equivalent, dissipates almost entirely when you account for things like occupation and hours worked.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:49PM (#28567713)
Even if you accept that differences are solely economic (this a very tough sell for raical inequality imo, it's far from fully explained by economics), that leaves you with the question of why are black people disproportionately impoverished. This is a tougher question than why women tend to work fewer hours.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by mpweiher on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:24PM (#28568183)
Hmmm...I used "generally" and "high order bit".

Somehow this turned into "solely". Why?

And I am fully aware that these facts are a "tough sell" these days, because they don't fit the prevailing narrative.

Another one: yes, the criminal justice system is biased against blacks. However, it is vastly more biased against males. By a 6:1 margin.

And yes, I agree that the question why black people who are not recent immigrants are disproportionately impoverished is important to answer. It is important to ask the right questions if you want to get a usable answer. And I doubt there is a unifactorial answer.

Why the "who are not recent immigrants"? Black people who are recent immigrants from Africa actually do better economically than whites.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:49PM (#28568591)
"Solely" is a thought experiment, just to highlight the importance of that question.

It's a tough sell because statistics don't back it up; there are other significant factors at play.

There are certainly some biases against men but i think you are overestimating this one. Are you accounting for the differences between men and women?

The success of African immigrants suggests that the effect really has nothing to do with skin color, but other societal and cultural factors. Luckily society and culture are both mutable.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by mpweiher on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:02PM (#28568796)
1. When someone writes "generally" and you answer with "solely", it sure sounds a lot like you're setting up a straw-man.

2. The statistics do back it up.

3. "This gender gap is about six times as large as the racial disparity that Prof. Starr found in another recent paper."

https://web.archive.org/web/20180428124536/https://www.law.u...

4. Yes, skin color certainly does not appear to be a dominant factor, and maybe not a factor at all as you write.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:05PM (#28571881)
A young black man in the 2nd perctile of income has the same chance of being incarcerated as a young white man in the 65th. The difference between the 1st percentile and 99th percentile young white men is smaller than between 80th percentile black men and white men. [1] I'm not sure which stats you are looking at, but the ones I see suggest that economics are not the biggest factor.

The gender disparity is interesting and I wasn't aware of it's severity. Thanks.

[1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/03/19/race-class-deba...

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by mpweiher on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:53AM (#28574025)
So your blog post is contradicted by the research I cited.

How to explain the difference? Well, the blog post doesn't control for other variables. Such as, crucially, how much crime do people commit and how severe are those crimes?

The UofM study did control for such factors.

And yeah, how much crime people commit varies and, yeah, has a pretty severe impact on how much incarceration happens. If you didn't control for these variables, the male/female disparity would be incredibly more severe, as the vast majority of inmates are male.

And if you look, you will see that the research the blog post references comes from an advocacy group.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by ikr678 on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:47AM (#28563241)
Access to guns is the main source of gun crime. 'Oppressed local minority populations' or non-european diversity or whatever other racial euphemism you wish to use has nothing to do with it.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:44AM (#28561301)
So 13% native black population, a higher percentage native born Hispanic population, multiple generations of multiple different Asian cultures, these dont count? Why?

All your metric does is demonstrate who began allowing immigration first.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:57AM (#28561379)
US is 76.3% white compared to Canada's 77.7% white. Still pretty similar. Actually, US's numbers are from 2019 but Canada's are from 2016. Canada's percentage should be lower than US's now, given the difference in their annual immigration numbers.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada#Visible...

Or if you want to do the math yourself: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/pr...

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by NoImmatureAdHom on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:40AM (#28566010)
I think 76.3% white is misleading because, while the U.S. Census Bureau counts hispanic people as "white", basically no North American's intuitive model of race or ethnicity would count hispanics as white. Which is why the Census is always careful to break out non-Hispanic white.

The real comparison is non-Hispanic white to non-Hispanic white, where it becomes ~55% to ~75% or so. Hispanic people in the U.S. are easily visually differentiable, most often have one or more languages aside from, or instead of, English and come from cultures that are markedly different than mainstream U.S. culture.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by blix on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:02PM (#28567062)
It's getting into the weeds a little, but there are also likely differences between local vanquished populations, immigrants and their descendants who arrive voluntarily by air/sea, those who arrive voluntarily by land and those who arrive involuntarily.

Canada and the USA are close overall, but Canada's immigrants are much more likely to be educated professionals than those coming to the USA. And since Canada never implemented widespread slavery, there really isn't an analog to the experience of black Americans. I think that is a very big factor.

Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by random314 on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:42AM (#28561286)
Please dont prick the right wing narrative of "homogeneous culture" which is a dog whistle for "racial segregation amongst countries".
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by inter_netuser on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:07PM (#28560765)
Canada might watch the same TV as the US, but criminal laws and attitudes/views/gun laws are VERY different.
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:41AM (#28561277)
None of this has to do with what I asked you. What do you think the driver is for the violent crime rate in Argentina that doesn't apply to the US?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:00AM (#28561391)
Economy and poverty
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by betwixthewires on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:26PM (#28567396)
Alright. And what about the US precludes these from being the cause rather than guns?
Re:Women are nearly half of new gun buyers, study finds by smnrchrds on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:42PM (#28567620)
Because its poverty and economy are like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand much much much more than Argentina.