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Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by PragmaticPulp on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:43PM (#28547713)
> We have enough evidence to at least build correlation between social media use and decline of mental health.

Again, eerily similar to the violent video game panic in the 90s.

The original congressional hearings on violence in video games followed record-high gun violence in 1993 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_congressional_hearings_on... ). Politicians pushed a correlation between increasing popularity of violent video games and increasing gun homicides. It sounds dumb now, but video games were relatively new at the time.

The correlation felt right to many, especially those who hadn't grown up with video games in their own lives. I see this social media debate following the same pattern where adults feel that social media is evil and assume evidence will eventually support their feelings.

> Because there is no evidence for this. In cases where there is, like in lootboxes, we see a push for legislation.

That's rewriting history. Decades ago, there was a huge push for legislation against violent video games long before lootboxes were a thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_congressional_hearings_on... )

Violent video games have been called out as recently as 2019 by president Trump ( https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/politics-news/trumps-... )

Violent video games have been a political scapegoat for decades. The debate about social media is following in the same footsteps.

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by Apocryphon on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:42AM (#28548799)
Just because violent video games isn't problematic doesn't mean social media and/or lootboxes also isn't. The relative innocuousness of marijuana doesn't dismiss the dangers of tobacco, or alcohol.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by uuddlrlr on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:13PM (#28555131)
It's often not mentioned but marijuana use can result in psychosis and early-onset schizophrenia in a substantial subset of the population. It's still relatively innocuous IMO.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by Apocryphon on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:17PM (#28555183)
Yeah, I just mentioned it because it was an example of a drug that experienced a moral panic (“reefer madness”). But one drug being less bad doesn’t mean other drugs aren’t worse and more immediately harmful.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by dr_dshiv on Thursday September 16, 2021 @06:02AM (#28549830)
But doesn't it seem similar to past "moral panics"? I have a 12-year-old and I'm super concerned about social media and kids's wellbeing— there seems to be an obvious relationship. But there also seemed to be an obvious relationship between violent video games and violence — or with comic books and reading.

This is the best study i know about digital media and adolescent wellbeing and they find an extremely small effect size (accounting for less than 0.4% of adolescent wellbeing).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562%20018%200506%201?mod=...

This doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned, especially if we are motivated to design better media culture. I can't stand Facebook.

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by cutemonster on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:18AM (#28550302)
> doesn't it seem similar to past "moral panics"?

No I don't think so.

I've played lots of first person shooters and it's harmless.

But social media causing damaging self worth worries, I slightly experience myself, sometimes. It's a real problem, in my eyes.

(Loot boxes, and computer gaming addiction, are real problems with the games though.)

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by Apocryphon on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:19PM (#28555210)
I don’t even think that violent video games are harmless. I just think the desensitization is more insidious and longer-term, maybe something with cultural and spiritual ramifications, but not something that’s as immediately harmful to public health like depression caused by social media social stresses.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by cutemonster on Thursday September 16, 2021 @06:00PM (#28558273)
Hmm. I'm thinking that if there was a graphical video game based on the book "American Psycho" where one was playing that character, maybe it could be damaging to some.

I never saw such a game. -- The FPS games I've seen, I'd compare them more with looking at a ww2 movie.

"The last of us" -- that game maybe that one can cause, like you wrote, a bit desensitization. It's more realistic brutal violence in that game than what I saw in the games i played as a kid.

Any games come to your mind?

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by Apocryphon on Thursday September 16, 2021 @06:02PM (#28558292)
Manhunt jumps to mind. There's a few games, some of which from Rockstar, that aims to be edgy and gratuitous for the sake of it. Maybe the Hitman games, since they are literally murder simulators?
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by cutemonster on Monday September 20, 2021 @03:20PM (#28597664)
I had a look at Manhunt, it's an a more brutal game than what I would have thought.

For sure I wouldn't want military or policemen to play such games, and not kids either

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by mpartel on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:18AM (#28547958)
A good chunk of evidence has been summarized here: https://ledger.humanetech.com/
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by resonious on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:32AM (#28548405)
That's a cool site. I wish there was something similar for video games. I've always been on the side of "entertainment doesn't cause real violence", but it would be nice if I could easily point to real research to actually back it up. Of course, I'd also be happy to be proven wrong. It's the fact that all I can do is state an opinion that bothers me.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by GoblinSlayer on Thursday September 16, 2021 @03:00PM (#28555790)
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by ranguna on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:28AM (#28548727)
In 1993 it seems like pushing legislation for reduced violence on TV shows (not video games, as the wiki page you linked says) was a good. And it's a good call to push legislation for kid's social media now as well.
Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by tjs8rj on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:01AM (#28547842)
You make a good point, how would we tell the difference though?

If social media as it stands causes unreasonable harm to society, how would we know for sure? And how would we know we aren’t making the same mistakes made with demonizing video games?

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by TheTester on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:48PM (#28547743)
Studies have shown that there is a correlation between social media use and decline of mental health.

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4183915/)

Not only that but anyone that has used social media can say that to you, specially younger people.

Meanwhile studies show there was no correlation between violence and videogames. And except for lag you can't really find a lot of people that will tell you videogames made them violent. (https://www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/observer/o...)

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by invalidname on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:18AM (#28547953)
There weren't studies back then. Just correlation. We have quite a few studies that show the damages of specific kinds of social media and specific practices by social media. Hell a genocide happened because Facebook fell asleep at the wheel.

There are many ways to regulate social media:

- Determine constraints and objective statistical goals the ranking algorithm must meet

- Blocking and marking fake content

etc.

Facebook could choose to rank positivity higher but it does the opposite since it increases engagement.

Re:Lawmakers Ask Zuck to Drop 'Instagram for Kids' Since App... by wutbrodo on Thursday September 16, 2021 @09:57AM (#28551850)
> We have quite a few studies that show the damages of specific kinds of social media and specific practices by social media. Hell a genocide happened because Facebook fell asleep at the wheel.

Do we actually have these, or are you inferring we do from the general tone of the media conversation around this topic? I'm aware of some correlation studies, and think the topic bears keeping an eye on.

Would you mind sharing one of the "quite a few" causal studies you're referring to?

> Hell a genocide happened because Facebook fell asleep at the wheel.

This is a non sequitur. Facebook didn't cause the genocide any more than Marconi caused the Rwandan genocide or AT&T caused Watergate. Widespread communications technologies and platforms are deeply fundamental to human interaction in the modern age; the only model that marks Facebook as at all causal of Rohingyan persecution requires giving them a nonsensical amount of undue credit for the human interaction that occurs across their platform. Eg, you'd have to make obviously absurd claims like that Facebook is responsible for legalizing gay marriage in the US (activists heavily use FB and other social media platforms to organize).

To be clear, I think criticism of FB from the UN et al on the topic of Myanmar is warranted. The nature of the platform is such that the capability can be built out to direct and constrain the conversations that are had, and it's fair to say that Facebook needs to expand the manner in which it does so.

But this contradicts your point: the salient difference is the ability to control communication so that it stops violence, which in your framing is a _positive_ of social media.

(Note that I'm personally close to an unrestricted speech maximalist, but I'm taking your framing for granted in the above paragraphs)