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Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by sgt on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:28AM (#28539483)
Is this actually happening though? I thought it was mostly just Twitter and subsequently the media feeling the need to write shocking stories. I have never had or heard someone tell me that it's bad to be white.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by torstenvl on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:33AM (#28539559)
Oh yes. It's literally to the point that even saying "it's okay to be white" is considered alt-right and white supremacist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_okay_to_be_white

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by jimbokun on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:23PM (#28541081)
> The Guardian columnist Jason Wilson argued that the slogan It's okay to be white was devised by white supremacists in order to stoke overreaction from the left, sow confusion, embed a racist agenda in the mainstream media, and ultimately invite a backlash against anti-racist activism."

Well, looks like they were very successful then.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by torstenvl on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:32PM (#28541196)
PSA: If you say it isn't okay to be a race and you attack everyone who says it is okay to be a race, you are not "anti-racist"
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:48AM (#28539816)
When any phrase is used exclusively by alt-right groups as a way to dogwhistle and provoke, it makes sense to label it as something that alt-righters use.

No one is seriously arguing that devoid on the context and who pushes that specific phrasing, that it's "not ok to be white"

You have to intentionally disingenuous to seriously believe that.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by refenestrator on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:11AM (#28540143)
When that phrase is used to troll people into freaking out at an innocuous phrase, and they do so, that's on them.
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Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by hackerNoose on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:48PM (#28541414)
Your sentiment is the root problem of the issue. Any issue that touches on problems facing white people will of course be reflexively supported by the alt right, white supremacist, etc., as well. This makes it impossible to talk about these issues without being associated with those groups or accused of "dog whistling". Similarly, if you speak up about men's issues you are considered part of the manosphere, a misogonyst and probably alt right. Basically any opinion that doesn't sing to the choir is labeled a "dog whistle" and dismissed. Basically we have allowed a small group of anxious people to silence all discussion and it's frankly destructive and untenable in the long run.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by jimbokun on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:33PM (#28541214)
I think you've clearly gone off the deep end when you are obsessing about what innocuous phrase has secret meaning to white supremacists. Like the freaking out over the "OK" sign, and the Hispanic guy who got fired because he used it without knowing the super secret meaning.

Seriously, these white supremacists are twisting you into hysterics and make you look like a fool with your obsession with decoding their secret symbols.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:32PM (#28541975)
No, it's easy and not "off the deep end at all"

The OK symbol is completely ok. There's nothing wrong with it. There's a certain sect of internet cretins who use it to dogwhistle to each other.

When someone uses the OK symbol, it literally means nothing. If that person also belongs to or is adjacent to that certain sect.. then you can start to ask questions but still mainly assume innocent intent.

If that person is using the OK symbol while wearing a MAGA hat, posting pictures with Pepe the frog doing the OK symbol, etc.. You can see clearly the throughline here and it's not illogical or wrong to see what that person is clearly trying to do and call them out on it.

I'm not 'decoding secret symbols', and if a hispanic person truly was fired for just doing an "OK" sign and nothing else, then no one who is serious on the left should support that as that is beyond absurd. For some reason, my bet is that there was a bit more going on than that though, but I could be wrong!

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by refenestrator on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:39PM (#28542060)
You can look up the story, it was in the fevered summer of 2020 when lots of people were trying to get other people fired for innocent boring stuff in the name of Justice.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:36PM (#28543400)
Yeah, that's extremely stupid. It seems like he was suing his employer for this, hopefully it went well: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firin...

After the points I made, do you still think I'm being illogical and off the deep end? I really think what I'm saying about recognizing dogwhistles is important and common sense, but maybe I'm wrong.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by jimbokun on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:25PM (#28544582)
Our current hyper-partisan always-on tribalism is a fertile ground for witch hunts and rumors that go off the rails.

The Hispanic OK sign dude is one particularly egregious example of this. I think in most of these cases, the company thinks it's easier to fire the person than bother to investigate what actually happened.

So it's very important to verify that a so called "dog whistle" isn't a hoax or overblown, and sometimes even if some Internet trolls are trying to launch a dog whistle bringing attention to what they're doing is helpful marketing for their cause with all the attention it brings.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by refenestrator on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:36PM (#28541252)
I'm orthogonal to your points. I'm not as attached to the symbolic online battle, and I appreciate good trolling.

> It's more important exactly who is using the phrase and why, than what the phrase is.

This is thought-terminating tribal idiocy.

Let's put it in tribal terms for you. If your tribe self-owns by jumping into an obvious bear trap, that's an L for you and yours. Take some responsibility, and maybe slow down to consider the words next time.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by MatteoFrigo on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:38PM (#28541280)
Since I don't normally follow "white supremacists", and I would have a hard time finding them even if I wanted, how am I supposed to know what's a dogwhistle and what is not?
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:34PM (#28541993)
It's totally okay to use the OK symbol and pepe the frog, etc. I should have made that more clear; there's no problem in any way whatsoever with them until you start to see a pattern of the person using them being alt-right or adjacent, flirting with it, etc
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by newswriter99 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:35PM (#28541246)
You ignored their points entirely so I'm not sure why anyone should have to read that BS wall of text.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:35PM (#28542009)
What were their points, and how do my points not address them? I very much responded, and I should be more clear than until a person is clearly alt-right, them using the OK symbol or pepe the frog is 100% fine and I wouldn't even think about it.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by jimbokun on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:29PM (#28541161)
If you are provoked by something as innocuous as "It's OK to be white" you really need to re-examine your commitment to tribalism and dedication to going out of your way to find things to be offended by on the Internet. (Or attached to telephone poles.)

Which was clearly the goal of this experiment, to show how quickly and vehemently people over react to anything that seems to deviate slightly from their personal ideology, no matter how slight.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by stnmtn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:36PM (#28542026)
I think you're dodging my main message. Of course it's ok to be white, I said that very very clearly in my comment I think, right?

The thing is, you have to see who is using and spreading that message. When it's alt-right people, you can assume malicious intent when they use it.

If someone who is not clearly alt-right says it, I wouldn't even think twice as that's literally meaningless, but you have to acknowledge how they are trying to use it as a dogwhistle

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by whatshisface on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:01AM (#28540008)
There is only one reason someone from one of those subreddits would say that line, and it's to get HN arguing about whether or not it should be taken literally, or as in indication that someone from one of those subreddits is in the room.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by NullPrefix on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:37AM (#28539638)
It's not?
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by whatshisface on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:54AM (#28539917)
I was around on the internet when this was happening, so I can tell you the real story. Some people went around posting those signs, printed at home on A4 paper, around college campuses during a time when social justice issues were at a fever pitch in popular culture. Some very sensitive-to-social-justice-issues and sensitive-to-potential-indicators-of-people-being-insensitive-to-social-issues people saw them and became upset on Twitter. I think the signs usually got taken down, but that's what usually happens to signs.

Some people took this as a sign that an evil fifth column was going around trying to win an invisible cultural battle by putting up signs that had no racist content but that implied that someone around town would be willing to put up a racist sign if they had had the chance and the chutzpah.

Other people took this as a sign that the evil first through fourth columns were in such active pursuit of dissenters that they would get mad on Twitter and take down meticulously inkjetted pieces of A4 paper if they so much as implied that dissent was an option.

Few reasonable people took this as a sign that it was, literally, not "OK" to be a white person (what does that even mean? if it's not okay how are they supposed to stop?), but because taking down a sign can be taken to mean that the janitor disagrees with what those cultural mercenaries at Kinko's printed on it, that take got passed around a lot.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by hdjjhhvvhga on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:38PM (#28541282)
I believe the popularity of the sign lies in its ambiguity. You see, the mainstream discourse never went as far as to say "it is not OK to be white." It was hinted at, in a more or less subtle way, through the "white privilege" (some corporations actually have obligatory trainings on this) and in thousands of indirect ways making white people guilty of the skin they were born in.

So for some people the message of that poster was infuriating. You can't openly disagree with the literal meaning, but on the other hand, many people do it internally. They believe that white people as the descendants of slave owners should inherit the collective guilt of their great forefathers (even if it was a family of a third wave of immigrants from Europe that never owned any slaves). The very fact we are even discussing that is telling in itself.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by torstenvl on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:47AM (#28539799)
Case in point.

It is okay to be who you are. It doesn't matter your race or nationality, your sex or gender or creed. It's okay to be white. It's okay to be black. It's okay to be Asian. It's okay to be First Nations, Native, Indigenous. It's okay to be male or female or intersexed or trans. It's okay to be Catholic or Protestant or Sunni or Shia or Jewish or Orthodox or Baha'i or Zoroastrian or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist or Shinto or any other creed.

For all people everywhere, it is emphatically okay to exist.

If you disagree with that, then I think you need to re-examine who is engaging in supremacist politics.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by ratww on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:55AM (#28539937)
It definitely is ok to be white. It’s not ok to be a white supremacist, though.

Not everything has to be black and white and divisive.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by myWindoonn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:19AM (#28540247)
"White" is meaningless, isn't it? At best it's a judgement about skin pigmentation.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by scohesc on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:31AM (#28539530)
Every educational system that's worth it's salt here where I live in Canada is going full-bore on the whole "critical race theory" and how "white people have oppressed every other culture for centuries"

Trust me, it's happening.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by gruez on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:39AM (#28540489)
Can you provide links on what the materials look like?
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by hdjjhhvvhga on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:42PM (#28541332)
This kind of generalizing is a slap in the face of many nations that are predominantly white but have never colonized any country.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:51AM (#28548847)
My comment got flagged - and that's fine, but I'd like to hear an explanation.

Mine is as follows. Historically, the colonization was the domain of countries with access to sea, especially a long coast line - starting with Vikings. Among European countries, the colonization was done mainly by the Brits, Spain, Portugal, France, the predecessors of the modern Netherlands and Belgium.

Other European countries either didn't have access to sea, or had it but for various reasons weren't interested in colonization - for example because they were focused on land wars with their neighbors. You won't find many German or Austrian colonies. And you can talk to the Swiss how white people are guilty of colonialism, but you won't find any understanding there. Some with the whole Eastern Europe.

I understand this simplistic point of view ("white people invaded the whole world") seems attractive to some, but it's false, unjust and racist. If you say, "Several European countries colonized a significant portion of the world" - this is accurate, true, and definitely not racist. But it seems people don't care about facts or being precise anymore: it's all about emotion and fitting one's limited set of views.

===

EDIT: To people who flag and downvote: I'm a very open-minded person. I don't want to live in my bubble. So please, talk to me. Explain why I'm wrong - or at least why you disagree. HN is a discussion forum, let's use this opportunity to actually transmit some useful information. To me, downvoting and flagging says, "I disagree but I can't find any counter-arguments".

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Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by dang on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:34PM (#28542003)
You added that last paragraph after your original comment, which was just the first two sentences. That was a highly misleading edit, because it changes the meaning of the reply you got. That was not a nice thing to do to the other user, even if they weren't being particularly nice to you in the first place.

It's great to share your personal experience and fine to edit your comments, but if you're making substantial edits, please say that they're edits.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by sgt on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:00PM (#28542959)
That made me think of a feature idea for HN - revision history for edited comments, publicly available. What do you think?
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by dang on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:35PM (#28544674)
I've thought about it over the years but there are also a lot of cases where it's better not to point a spotlight on things; if people post something they regret and later edit it out, and the effect isn't misleading, it's usually better to just let it sink into obscurity.

There are variations of such a feature that might strike a balance - for example only tracking edits once a comment has replies; or simply marking them 'edited' without saying what the edits were.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by gjsman-1000 on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:53AM (#28550530)
I just saw this dang and I apologize for my edit. It was not intended to mess up the next person’s as it was to add more context - but I recognize how it messed up their response. Sorry.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by dang on Sunday September 19, 2021 @05:28PM (#28588095)
Appreciated!
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by ssully on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:34AM (#28539588)
Have you done this yourself? Can you tell me what critical race theory is?
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by whatshisface on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:03AM (#28540036)
English has a lot of strange phrases that mean something other than what you'd guess from parsing the words by what they mean. For example, critical race theory is a phrase in the imperative sense that means "start arguing right now."
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Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by myWindoonn on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:22AM (#28540295)
From WP: "Critical race theory (CRT) is a body of legal scholarship and an academic movement of US civil-rights scholars and activists who seek to critically examine the intersection of race and U.S. law and to challenge mainstream American liberal approaches to racial justice." It's legal theory, dumbass.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by dang on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:38PM (#28542045)
Whoa, you can't attack others like that here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Since you've been doing it repeatedly, and ignored our requests to stop, I've banned this account.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by whatshisface on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:26AM (#28540340)
It is well past the point of meaning what it's defined to mean. I have been hearing about it somehow showing up as a guiding principle in the design of middle school curricula, which does not involve teaching those kids any legal theories. It is what all words turn into when they are used too often: it is a buzzword.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by bradlys on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:33PM (#28541221)
Not sure if you are aware but this was a coordinated and planned tactic by right wing media. Specifically they targeted the term crt and decided to make it out to be the devil.

It’s a common tactic of Fox News and adjacent online outlets. Senators will join in as well. Anything to start a culture war. It’s coordinated and planned. I’m on mobile but I’d send you some evidence about it. I remember Hasan Piker showing some interesting information about it.

Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by newswriter99 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:02PM (#28540779)
Ah Wikipedia, the word of god.
Re:Why Are So Many Young Men Giving Up on College? by dang on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:36PM (#28542019)
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and flamebait comments.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html