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Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ryandrake on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:05PM (#28532716)
OP's statement recognizes that incentives matter. If you remove the incentive to do the right thing, people will simply not do the right thing--If 2020 has taught us anything it has to be that! You can't just rely on everyone being a rational actor and let Nash Equilibrium keep society functioning. It becomes a gigantic Prisoners Dilemma with everyone choosing DEFECT. You complain that "not recognizing natural immunity" is lying, but you did not address the fact that doing so incentivizes behavior leading to better long-term results for society.

Think of all the untrue things that are said every day in order to not induce panic in our financial system, to discourage bank runs, to discourage hoarding/scalping, to generally promote a functional society. This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by dnissley on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:26PM (#28532940)
The reason that it's lying is that natural immunity does provide decent protection. You're so focused on incentives in the small that you forgot about incentives in the large -- this type of bs is exactly why people feel entitled to opt into believing "alternative facts".
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by Robotbeat on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:09AM (#28535178)
Natural immunity and vaccination provide even better protection, though. Plus vaccination can help with Long COVID symptoms. So I don't see that there's anything wrong--or misleading--with encouraging/requiring people to get vaccinated to avoid weekly testing.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by omegaworks on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:38PM (#28533052)
"Lying" implies malicious intent. It is not lying to communicate via the channels of public health the strategies that would optimize our utilization of public health resources.

As we are literally seeing in many states, obtaining natural immunity en-mass means that ICUs fill, doctors and nurses burn out, and morgues have waiting lists.

That "natural immunity provides decent protection" is itself a lie. Decent protection for whom exactly? It doesn't protect your community to act as a vector for this virus while you are obtaining said immunity. It doesn't even protect you from the risk of long-lasting post-infection disability. It is deliberately malicious and puts its believers at an objectively higher risk.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by dnissley on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:45PM (#28533121)
"Lying" implies malicious intent.

Are you really sure you want to go down that road? Are you really saying you're fine with someone telling you falsehoods so long as it's in what they believe to be your best interest?

It is not lying to communicate via the channels of public health the strategies that would optimize our utilization of public health resources.

Is the strategy actually working? It sure doesn't seem like it. In fact, it seems to be eroding trust in public institutions on a massive scale with very little other benefit.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by omegaworks on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:07PM (#28544343)
"natural immunity provides decent protection" is a falsehood that exposes your intentionally limited definitions of "decent" and "protection." Again it is anything but decent behavior to expose your community to a contagious virus and it doesn't protect the person desiring immunity via infection from potential disability. Natural is even in question as the mechanism by which the body produces antibodies against the virus is the same. The RNA vaccine encodes a specific antigen, this antigen is presented to your natural immune system and it produces defenses like it would to any other antigen.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by generalizations on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:45PM (#28533128)
> This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

It's hard to believe you wrote that with a straight face.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by dgfitz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:37PM (#28533037)
> This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

Wow. I believe what you just described is the textbook definition of manipulation. I’m sincerely discouraged right now.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by cdash on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:42PM (#28533087)
> This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

Also known by another name, alternative facts.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by refurb on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @08:01PM (#28533255)
That works well until people realize you’re lying and then stop believing anything you say moving forward.

That’s pretty much the opposite of results-driven.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by pandaman on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @08:19PM (#28533410)
>This isn't lying, it's results-driven communication.

Doubleplusgoodful newspeak, comrade.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by Niksko on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:51AM (#28535707)
So many people are criticizing you for your comment about 'lying'. Realistically, the statements presented are so under-specified that is pretty difficult to determine what 'the lie' is. Which is the entire point.

Let's take OP's statement: "natural immunity is probably just as good as vaccination, we'll accept that as equal for passport purposes". Presumably, the negation of that statement i.e. "natural immunity is probably not just as good as vaccination, we won't accept that as equal to vaccination for passport purposes" would be considered 'lying'. This statement is ridiculously under specified, even if you take out the "probably".

Define natural immunity? Perhaps someone has to take a blood test to show they have the right anti-bodies. Define "just as good". Define "equal to vaccination for passport purposes". Equal how? Why not for other purposes?

All of these questions and lack of clarity are exactly what the parent is talking about. No truth is absolute. There are statements that are less true, but are more effective as communication methods. Politics should prove that to you, and the fact that you don't like it doesn't make it less true.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ryandrake on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:12AM (#28539271)
There are a lot of people criticizing, and that's OK. The voting on this one was the biggest roller coaster I've ever seen here--at one point is was my highest-upvoted recent comment. Obviously hit a nerve both ways.

I'm not condoning lying. I am condoning public policy (including communication to support that policy) that has the end result of saving lives and getting us back to normal. I think a lot of people here are young and rationalists and full of idealism. They have this pure idea that every human being is uniformly spherical and acts 100% rationally, so given all the facts, self-interest will surely steer us into a rationalist utopia, but that's just not the case. Idealists don't account for people working against their own self-interest because of religious fervor. They don't recognize widespread and rapidly spreading ignorance. Rationalists can't explain "doing it for the lulz".

I don't have a lot of love for politicians, but I don't envy their job: They're elected to steer a ship with close to half of the passengers drilling as many holes in the hull as fast as they can. If you have to tell them that drills are dangerous and should be avoided, then that's what you have to do.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by peteradio on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:23PM (#28532904)
You fail to recognize that 30% plus genuinely did have covid. Why focus on a handful of potential bad actors when largely you should give the benefit of the doubt.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by kelnos on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:51PM (#28533167)
We shouldn't give the benefit of the doubt. We should define what an acceptable post-infection antibody level is, have people get blood tests, and issue something similar to the CDC vaccination card that attests that the bearer has natural immunity. Those should be accepted as equivalent to a CDC vax card where one is needed.

I do agree that doing this would likely further slow down vaccination rates, even among unvaccinated people who have not yet gotten COVID. Many will just accept the risk of getting the virus, and then some will end up in the hospital, and some will die.

So while I'm uncomfortable with the lack of acceptance around post-infection immunity when appropriate, I do think it's understandable.