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Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by Gabriel_Martin on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:52PM (#28532600)
When it comes to comparing the amounts of US gov spending to US household spending (not that I could propose a better mechanism, meaning I understand the value of framing things in such a way, and fully admit I can't think of a more salient way to do it) I'm just not a fan of comparing state level spending to household or personal finance.

It leads to other examples being used that just are not true. Like: "It is similar to a person using his or her credit card for a purchase (rather than cash, check, or a debit card) and not paying the full credit card balance each month".

I cannot sell access to my debt to pay for past debts, which is how the government has paid it's debts since 1837 (probably so long ago because that the last time we sought to destroy debt and not pay for things by monetizing debt, it caused the longest depression in American history due to Jackson's monetary policy in 1835). Nor can I create credit out of thin air, by buying treasuries my member banks. Also, I most definitely do not owe 50% of my non-intergovernmental debt to my own central bank and state and local governments and their pensions. Much less, all the while operating with a currency I control.

So yeah, I don't love it, but I get it.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by jkhdigital on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:42PM (#28534157)
The problem with unconstrained government deficit finance is not inflation, it is cronyism and corruption. When 638 individuals decide how $3 trillion gets spent, almost any amount of lobbying expense will yield a positive NPV.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by adventured on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:46PM (#28534625)
> When 638 individuals decide how $3 trillion gets spent

Just a small correction. Federal Government spending was $4.4 trillion in 2019. It was $6.6t for 2020 [2], with $4.6t of that being mandatory spending; tax revenue was $3.4t for 2020 by comparison. We wish outlays were only $3t, we'd have a nice budget surplus right now.

[1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56324

[2] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by phkahler on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:46PM (#28533133)
The analogies are good to help people see that government debt is bad. When a person is in over their head, they can possibly file for bankruptcy. When a government gets in over their head bad things happen too, up to and including wars. Comparing government debt to personal debt is just a way to make it more comprehensible how bad the situation is.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by Gabriel_Martin on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:19PM (#28533955)
These are the exact sentiments I believe personal/household finance analogies evoke, and basically why I oppose their use. It evokes comparisons to some kind of possibility of something happening analogous to bankruptcy when in fact:

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

So yeah, it's just my opinion but to me the mechanics and context of the US's federal debt is so departed from that of household finance, that it's more detrimental than beneficial to even use them in the first place. But again, I understand the desire to anchor it to something people recognize.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by throwaway34241 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:09AM (#28536150)
Not to mention unless you print money everyone can't save money at the same time - so the "saving is good / debt is bad" intuition from the household analogy can't hold up mathematically.

In reality, savings and debt are basically two sides of the same coin - one is a promise for future consumption, and the other is a promise to forgo future consumption that balances it out.

One of my favorite simple models is sectoral balances - you can divide US dollar holders into domestic and foreign categories, and then divide up the domestic category into the private sector and the government (leaving 3 categories total).

If you don't print money, the net saving should all add up to zero. If the government is running a surplus, that means the combination of the private and foreign sector is going into debt. If there's a trade deficit, then the combo of the private sector and government are going into debt. Etc.

People can still be against government deficits with such a model, but it's not because everyone should save up at the same time (they literally can't). It's because they want the private sector to go into more debt, and are worried about government debt "crowding out" private sector debt. And more private sector debt isn't always a bad thing - in practice it might mean more housing, factories, and other sorts of investments that debt finances.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by gone35 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:52AM (#28536437)
^This is correct, demonstrably.

Unlike at the micro level, at the macro level your spending is my income.

That alone changes (almost every) received microeconomic intuition.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by jasonwatkinspdx on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:01AM (#28536495)
This is the exact framing that's worked to get things across to friends that have gotten confused by some fear mongering propaganda using the personal finance metaphor. It naturally leads into explaining how potential deflation needs to be address in a way very from being thrifty personally.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by darawk on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:23PM (#28533989)
> "The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

While this is partially true:

1. Sovereign nations absolutely can and do default. See, Russia in the 1990s and the LTCM fiasco.

2. Even though they do not have to default and can always print money to pay their debts, doing so causes inflation. How much inflation it causes is proportional to how much money is printed.

Now, the dynamics of inflation are pretty complicated, so in certain circumstances you can get away with it for a while. But it is not the case that the government can print money indefinitely with zero consequences.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by sega_sai on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:45PM (#28534195)
Sovereign nations can default if the debt is nominated in a different currency (which was the case of Russia, but is not the case for US)
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by darawk on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:56PM (#28534276)
No, they can default even when it is denominated in their own currency, which is what Russia did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Russian_financial_crisis

Most countries just choose not to do this. They weren't forced to default. They could have chosen to monetize their debt. They just didn't choose to do that.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by User23 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:37AM (#28535615)
A sovereign could choose to default even if they somehow had a net surplus. Because, you know, sovereign literally means you can do whatever you want up to some more powerful foreign sovereign invading, because you have a local monopoly on violence.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by xxpor on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:43PM (#28534166)
Point 2 is extremely debatable, especially if you're a reserve currency. The balance of payments also matters.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by darawk on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:57PM (#28534284)
It's really not debatable at all. What is debatable is how much printing it takes. It is not debatable that there exists an amount of printing that will cause inflation.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by xxpor on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:59PM (#28542953)
It very much depends where the money ends up and what it's doing. See the past 13 years in the US and western world generally.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by whatever1 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:20AM (#28535528)
If your piece of paper is backed by the US air force, I will buy it, no matter how much you print of it.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by darawk on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:28AM (#28535897)
Sure. But the rate you will buy it at will change.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by jkhdigital on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:39PM (#28534135)
And the line between “acceptable consequences” and “catastrophic consequences” is basically unknowable, so it’s not a bad idea to err on the side of caution.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by throwaway34241 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:55AM (#28536060)
> so it’s not a bad idea to err on the side of caution

Over time it's gotten harder for me to figure out what the side of caution even is. If they are too aggressive in stimulating the economy, they risk inflation. If they are not aggressive enough they risk a persistently weak economy, escalating political dysfunction, and (if history is a guide) eventual collapse of the status quo and usually even-more-inflationary policies.

It doesn't seem like there is a safe path anywhere - errors on either side seem like they could be potentially catastrophic.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by lumost on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @09:41AM (#28538911)
This assumes that the us has an unlimited ability to monetize its debt. If this is not true than there could be a hard landing for federal borrowing. This was briefly tested in the 1970s when the carter administration issued debt in foreign currency.

The fed could find itself in the position of fighting a structural imbalance such that for every dollar lent to the government the deficit increases by 1.X dollars. This would be the case under rampant corruption, rampant inflation, or an economy collapsing.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by mariojv on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:31PM (#28541954)
More history on the Carter administration's actions if anyone's curious. I'd never heard of this before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_bonds https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/international/ESF/P...

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by phkahler on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:01AM (#28540003)
>> "The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default." Alan Greenspan

That has negative consequences that are papered over by making simplistic statements like that. The debt is still bad and going to result in bad things happening, and no platitudes from the Fed are going to change that.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by Gabriel_Martin on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @10:40PM (#28547307)
I mean no platitude necessary, by your logic if debt is bad then no debt is good. But last time that was the case it caused the longest depression in American history. How does that add up?
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by donavanm on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @08:55PM (#28533727)
> When a government gets in over their head bad things happen too, up to and including wars.

Do they? I havent looked in a while but my recollection (of south america in particular) is that the impact of government bond default is actually pretty low. A couple years without good international bond market access, higher premiums for a few years, maybe some wrangling with the IMF and surface level "restructuring." But sooner rather than later its back to issuance on the open market with willing buyers after those premiums.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by lend000 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:15PM (#28533919)
I suspect some Argentinians and Venezuelans would disagree with you about the degree of consequence.

Argentina: decades of inflation and economic stagnation.

Venezuela: societal collapse.

With game theory, you can see how a certain amount of debt, especially when borrowed from foreign lenders, can be the optimal choice for long term relative national growth. That's pretty much what the US did for most of its history up to ~2001. But unsustainable, growing debt, certainly has consequences.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by donavanm on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:37AM (#28535942)
So the original comment was that When a person is in over their head, they can possibly file for bankruptcy. When a government gets in over their head bad things happen too, up to and including wars.

For a government default is *very* similar to the US personal & commercial bankruptcy process. Its generally structured, governed by contracts, creditors take a negotiated "haircut", payments are deferred or restructured, etc.

In light of this yes, Argentina is a great example of teh real effects. This quick hit from WSJ[1] highlights argentina issuing a new 100-year bond in 2017, with massive subsciption, 3 years after a default and 3 years before the next.

Looking at the articles infographic[2] the timeline actually includes two different defaults, 2001 & 2014. There are 4 lean years of little to no issuance in 02-05, and a tiny hit in the number of issuance in 14-15. My recollection is that larger studies across time and geography actually show minimal impact to yields ~7 years after default.

So yes, governments absolutely have access to mechanisms similar to bankruptcy. And no, default is absolutely not catastrophic to future funding, debt management, or spending. And yes again, the people of places like argentina & venezuela have suffered greatly for generations but that seems to be a different proposition than "governments cant manage huge and/or unsustainable debts without drastic outcomes."

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/argentina-sells-2-75-billion-of... [2] https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BF-AR635_ARGENT_1...

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by SubiculumCode on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @08:16PM (#28533378)
Government debt is not bad. Government debt is a net private surplus.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by jkhdigital on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:44PM (#28534182)
Government debt does not exist in a vacuum: it comes into existence because the government spent more money than it took in. What did it spend that money on? Ask the lobbyists.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:47PM (#28534209)
> Government debt does not exist in a vacuum: it comes into existence because the government spent more money than it took in.

No, it exists because government issued commitments to pay people money in the future. A government that creates its own currency has no need to do this to spend more than it takes in in revenue, and even a government that doesn't create its own currency is free to issue such commitments without a deficit.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by jkhdigital on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:19PM (#28534456)
This makes no sense. The government doesn’t issue debt and then just sit on the cash. The debt ceiling is constantly being raised here in the US because every cent is spent.

The two events (1) Congress deciding to spend money (in excess of receipts), and (2) the Treasury issuing debt, are directly causally related. If event (1) doesn’t happen, then event (2) won’t happen. In theory it could, but in reality it does not, period.

Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:29PM (#28534516)
The US Congress chooses to behave (approximately) as if it had a commodity rather than self-issued fiat currency, but this is a choice, not some kind of necessity.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by SubiculumCode on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:05PM (#28544988)
Exactly. Just because we have a debt-guided mechanism does not make the currency not fiat. Those self-constraints can be changed or removed at any time.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by refurb on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @11:32PM (#28534943)
Government debt competes with private debt.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by dlp211 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:22AM (#28535536)
The demand for debt is higher than the private sector can supply.
Re:U.S. Treasury Data Lab by refurb on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:48AM (#28536028)
No, when a private company looks to sell debt, it's competing with the gov't for those same dollars.