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Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by umvi on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:00AM (#28524075)
I don't see why this is necessarily bad. An ML model is picking up on subtle anatomical or physiological differences between races. So what, that doesn't automatically mean the AI is racist or biased...
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:02AM (#28524101)
It's not necessarily bad, if it's actually working.

The fact that it works on an 8x8 massively pixelated version of the x-ray points to the possibility that it's not actually working, which would be bad if you based patient treatment decisions on an training set that was actually teaching the AI something else entirely.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by cubano on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:26AM (#28524437)
Huh?

What do you mean, not working? That the AI was randomly choosing the correct race 82% of the time by luck?

I'm confused by what your implying because it would seem to me that the authors went through many steps to try to pinpoint how the AI was doing this identification and how baffling it was to everyone that even with a lot of x-ray information removed (8x8 pixels compared to say 4k), it somehow was still correctly picking the race.

What would this "something else entirely" that you are implying actually be?

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:30AM (#28524495)
> That the AI was randomly choosing the correct race 82% of the time by luck?

No; as with the article I linked elsewhere in the thread (https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/31/this-clever-ai-hid-data-fr...), that the AI might have found some other indicator, like filenames in the data set, or metadata in the images that included patient name, or differences in the length of patient name (often redacted by black rectangles in x-rays in training data), or any number of other factors.

This happens all the time in science. As another recent example of "whoops, turned out we were measuring the wrong thing", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light_neutrino_ano...

Another example around AI: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/12/12/20993665/artificial-in...

> One such résumé-screening tool identified being named Jared and having played lacrosse in high school as the best predictors of job performance, as Quartz reported.

Are lacrosse players naturally better workers? Probably not. Are they probably whiter, wealthier, better networks, etc. than the average population? Probably. These sorts of things - as with the 8x8 pixel example - start to point to confounding variables that need to be worked out and accounted for.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by dexen on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:00AM (#28524928)
>the AI might have found some other indicator, like filenames in the data set

The paper quite explicitly goes into testing and disseminating what exactly the AI detects. Two observations:

- the classification clearly was primarily based on the visual content rather than spurious metadata, because various transformations of the visual content had the expected impact on classification correctness

- the classification clearly wasn't based on one specific feature of the visual content but rather on multiple factors in the visuals, because various transformations to features (including masking out specific features like bone density) produced results matching expectations (usually gradual decrease in accuracy, with some thresholds).

Conversely, if the classification was primarily based on factors other than the visual content, the visual transformations would have had negligible effect - possibly up to a threshold, and then would throw the AI completely off.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:09AM (#28525063)
The faster-than-light neutrino experiment similarly went "we've tried to account for everything we can think of and still can't figure it out" when they published. It turned out to be a measurement error.

The same may be true here, and I think it's the most likely explanation.

I'd be interested in whether the same model can be trained to predict patient wealth, hair color, style of clothing, religion, etc. from the same x-ray data sets.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by dexen on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:15AM (#28525173)
I am dismayed by your example that runs counter to the modern science.

While "faster than light neutrino" was highly unexpected and rather suspect from the start, the "bone geometry differs slightly between ethnic groups" is well established among the anthropologists of humans. There are also parallels in wider biology of animals - mentioning that to underscore it's as scientifically expected, and not merely construed for humans alone.

The question here was how exactly is AI detecting it this well from chest X-rays; the question centered around AI and possibly if it would unexpectedly influence the medical processes - rather than around the bone geometry itself.

For sake of example, a random link from google search: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24427702_Ethnic_dif...

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:16AM (#28525193)
I agree that an AI model might be able to glean race on a probabilistic basis from x-rays.

This specific model's ability to do it from a 64 pixel version of said x-ray makes me skeptical it's doing so successfully.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by jcims on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:22AM (#28525259)
What if it was an 8x8 grayscale photo of their face? We wouldn't be particularly surprised that it can guess race. The fact that we struggle to detect patterns in the data doesn't mean they don't exist.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:24AM (#28525305)
> We wouldn't be particularly surprised that it can guess race.

That's actually a great example of this problem, though.

https://www.theverge.com/21298762/face-depixelizer-ai-machin...

> It’s a startling image that illustrates the deep-rooted biases of AI research. Input a low-resolution picture of Barack Obama, the first black president of the United States, into an algorithm designed to generate depixelated faces, and the output is a white man.

> It’s not just Obama, either. Get the same algorithm to generate high-resolution images of actress Lucy Liu or congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez from low-resolution inputs, and the resulting faces look distinctly white. As one popular tweet quoting the Obama example put it: “This image speaks volumes about the dangers of bias in AI.”

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by Jensson on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:29PM (#28527184)
Wanting the AI to have the same racial bias as Americans, that is that Barrack Obama who is half white half east African should be categorised the same as someone with west African heritage is just dumb. Barrack Obama has a white mother and a father from Kenya, so has little resemblance to African Americans who have mostly west African heritage, only reason people don't see a difference is because they are so used to categorise people by skin color. Of course getting data from all areas of Africa and all mixes of people would be great, but there are limits and adding in more west Africans wouldn't have helped accurately depixel Obamas face.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by runako on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:59AM (#28525870)
This is actually pretty funny. In much of the American Deep South, even Americans from other parts of the country can't identify race reliably when sitting next to a person.

The notion that a classifier can reliably identify race based on an 8x8 grayscale is risible.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by jcims on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @11:53AM (#28526652)
Your comment is the only one in this entire thread that mentions reliability. Even if it were a meaningful metric in the context of race, an AUC of .68-.72 is a puncher's chance at best.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by HideousKojima on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @04:03PM (#28530299)
That's 1/4 the size of the texture of a Minecraft block. An AI could easily be trained to identify the block type of a Minecraft block based on an 8x8 subsample of one of its textures, and there's no reason something similar couldn't happen with biological race. Unless you a priori assume all racial differences are socially constructed and/or only skin deep.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @04:51PM (#28530951)
Every Minecraft block of a particular type is identical.

The same is... not remotely true for humans, or even two chest x-rays of the same human.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by hgial on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:47PM (#28527435)
Forgive me if I don't consider "you can tell someone's race from physical features" to be quite as extraordinary a result as "particles can travel faster than light".
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by ceejayoz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:41PM (#28528122)
The point is less "they're equally significant conclusions" and more "sometimes the thing you thought you discovered isn't a thing".
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by vilhelm_s on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:34PM (#28527248)
In principle yes, but did you read the paper? They do a lot of completely crazy things like blurring the image until it's just fuzzy blobs, or doing a high-pass filter on it until it just looks like noise (they comment that a human could not even guess that it's an x-ray picture), and they still get very high accuracy. Basically no matter what they try they can still get the race out, with slightly lower percentage numbers. When reading it I also thought this is too good to be true, and they may have some kind of bug in their code...
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by drdeca on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @02:49PM (#28529158)
It seems clear that if you just, instead of blurring the image, set the images (or the part of the image with the x-ray scan) to the same image, then that would work to evaluate whether it is getting the information from the image or from some other source.

Seeing as this would be easy to do, I imagine that if it is at all plausible from what they know that it is getting information from anything other than the x-ray scan, that they would have already tried this?

I do wonder how good of a predictor something would be if it just went off the average brightness of the image. Probably very bad, but maybe better than chance? Well, better than chance on the training set is to be expected, the question I guess is whether it would be better than chance on the test or validation set (I’m not confident in my understanding of the distinction between testing set and validation set. Is the idea that if you are using the score on the testing set to decide when to stop training, and maybe what hyper parameters to use or something, and other things to determine which model, you only try the model on the validation set once you have decided on your final version of the model?)

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:51AM (#28536780)
>> I’m not confident in my understanding of the distinction between testing set and validation set.

It's confusing, not least because people refer to "testing" when they mean "validation".

So, suppose you have a dataset, let's call it D, and it doesn't matter what's in it other than "instances". To train a classifier you start by creating two partitions of D: a trainign partition (the "training set"), and a testing partition (the "testing set"). We'll denote them by T₁ for the training set and T₂ for the testing set.

It's typical to use most of D as a training set, for example you may choose 80% of D to be T₁ and 20% to be T₂. Obviously T₁ ∩ T₂ = ∅ and T₁ ∪ T₂ = D.

Now, because T₁ is four times the size of T₂ it's very likely that when you test your classifer on T₂, it will appear much better than it is, just because most of the instances in T₁ aren't represented (by similar instances) in T₂. This is called overfitting to the training set. One way to mitigate it is to perform cross-validation, the most common type of which is k-fold cross-validation.

In k-fold cross-validation, you further partition T₁ to k partitions, or "folds", and then hold out each i'th partition, for i ∈ [1,k], use all the rest k-1 partitions as a training set and test on the i'th held-out partition _during training_. So you train your classifier on partitions 1 ... k minus i, test it on partition i, and repeat this process for all i, recording the performance (accuracy, F1, ROC etc, whatever your metric is). Then you choose the model that performed the best on your chosen metric.

And then you test it on T₂.

To avoid confusion between the k folds of T₁ that you use for testing your training models during cross-validation, on the one hand, and T₂, that you use for testing the model that performed best on cross-validation, on the other hand, we call the testing process performed on the k folds "validation" and each i'th subset of T₁ used for validation a "validation set". And we just call T₂ the "testing set".

The confusion arises because we do actually _test_ on sub-sets of T₁. But T₂ is always the "testing set" and it's never "seen" during training.

As to hyperparameter tuning, this is done _on the testing set_, i.e. T₂. This is A Very Bad Thing™ but there you go. Once you train a classifier and find out that it sucks on T₂, what do you do? Well, you tune the classifier's hyperparameters. Or do a grid search to automate the process. So eventually you overfit your classifier to the test set, because you now essentially have no "unseen" data instances in T₂ - the classifier didn't see the instances in T₂ during training but the trainer did, or, worse, the grid search did, and the classifier's hyperparameters were tuned according to that knowledge. How to avoid that, is a big question, but anyway that's what is done in practice, and the reason for that is that when you do Big Data, you end up needing so much data that despite having terrabytes of it, you never have enough.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by dexen on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:18PM (#28527836)
>crazy things like blurring the image until it's just fuzzy blobs

That... that doesn't influence one of the presumed ways the NN categorizes images: the trend in bone geometry. The "blobs", while fuzzy, still largely retain the relative proportions to each other. Or, in other words, proportions of image elements are invariant for operations of scaling and of blurring.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by andi999 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:36AM (#28536688)
If that is the case you could write a normal algorithm to get the proportions and see if it separates you data set nicely. (which should be done to prove this assertion)
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by shadowgovt on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:03PM (#28526803)
As an additional comment on this point:

The fact that trained neural networks cannot tell us why they give an answer and the best tool we have to explore that is to wiggle the inputs and see how the black box responds is a major concern for the whole space. Figuring out how to tag data with enough information to generate a "why" was an active area of research ten years ago and still is.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by YeGoblynQueenne on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:39AM (#28536709)
Yep. "Explainable AI" is an active area of research with huge amounts of funding and interest from institutions in the US, EU and China. For example, this is the DARPA programme:

https://www.darpa.mil/program/explainable-artificial-intelli...

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by 0-_-0 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:22PM (#28532284)
Can you explain to me how you recognize your mother's voice?
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by shadowgovt on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:57PM (#28533215)
I cannot, but I don't understand why the question is asked. I'm not a convolutional neural network. And recognition of my mother's voice isn't going to have impact on, say, medical treatment for people of a particular race, or who gets a loan granted to them, or whether an autonomous vehicle successfully recognizes a person crossing the street, or whether a drone's auto targeting system decides that this blob of sensory input is a civilian sedan or a tank, or any number of other situations where the consequences of not understanding how a decision was made are that people are placing their fates in the hands of unaccountable machinery.

One of the points of building these systems is to do better than human-driven.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by 0-_-0 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:52AM (#28536439)
We rely on human judgements that can't be described all the time in many of the above situations, so why would it be a "major concern" with machines? Machines can be much more thoroughly tested than humans, so they should be more statistically predictable
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by shadowgovt on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @08:11AM (#28538042)
Three reasons: one practical, two psychological.

The practical one is that errors in a machine system scale, as do most things with machines. If I have a single bad X-ray tech who is applying the wrong medical process because I have a different race, for some reason, the damage that tech is doing is limited to whatever specific set of patients they are seeing. If a similar error occurs in a popular machine classification tool used widely by a hospital network, the damage is widespread. It is a plus that the machine can be corrected and the correction also scales, but with the (relatively speaking) stone tools we use to understand why a CNN makes its decisions these days, every fix risks breaking something else we're not testing for.

The first psychological reason is that machine learning systems break in "alien" ways. They don't make the kind of mistakes humans make... They make mistakes as a product of their machinery, which means it's much much harder to predict what those mistakes will look like for an average operator. As a frequent example, it's pretty rare for humans to misclassify human beings in photographs as apes, or to fail to recognize a face in an image because the skin is too dark. That's a failure mode that happens over and over again with image recognition systems.

And the second psychological reason is that humans don't trust machines to make human decisions yet. And that mistrust doesn't extend to other humans, even though we're incapable of cracking open another human's mind and understanding their thought process at the mechanistic level. It doesn't matter... we are the same organism and have a shared experience and empathy with them that we lack with machine recognition systems. It's semi-irrational, but it can't be wished away. A system for understanding why a machine makes decisions would be a step in the direction of addressing those concerns.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by CWuestefeld on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:11AM (#28525093)
I'm just making this up, but...

Perhaps hospitals that treat a disproportionate share of poor people (which themselves are disproportionately not white), tend to use a different brand of X-ray film, and that brand has different contrast ratios than that of the brand preferred by rich hospitals. Thus, they'd be detecting the different brand of X-ray film rather than anything about the patients themselves.

Of course, at this level it's still hard to imagine generating that 82% hit rate. But maybe there are multiple factors along these lines.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by lostlogin on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @03:10PM (#28529504)
> tend to use a different brand of X-ray film

Most of us radiology folk abandoned film 20 years ago and went to digital systems (CR or DR). This doesn’t negate your query though, as vendors do have different technologies and their images do not look the same.

Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by kovek on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @03:35PM (#28529883)
That sounds like a great idea and they can test for it! Classify the scans on the “type of film” and then alter the scan and see if the model recognizes it
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by FeepingCreature on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:32AM (#28524531)
I think the idea is that it's picking up on a coincidental correlational bias in the source data.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by Cycl0ps on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:36PM (#28527266)
Since it's effectively the same anatomical structure, presented in a grayscale image, I think bone density would change the average color of the image regardless of what level of pixelation was applied. The chance of detection through some other method isn't ruled out though. It could be hitting off of something mundane like the margins on the edge of an image, how centered the torso is in frame, foreign objects in the body from procedures, any random thing that could bias the data can also lead to false positives. The only way to verify would be to use a new data set, ideally from new hospitals, and see if it has similar results.
Re:AI Recognises Race in Medical Images by macksd on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:09AM (#28524193)
But it does mean that AI models trained on data might end up just perpetuating racial correlations even when you don't think it's aware of race. It's another example of why interpretability is important: the model might end up depending on correlations you don't mean it to.