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Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by munk-a on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:36PM (#28483924)
I've worked with databases for a while now and I've never advocated for moving to Oracle (I have advocated for postgres though). The long term organizational costs is a big factor - but an almost equally large factor is the fact that

1. I have never actually used their dialect and have heard absolutely terrible things about it

2. There is no non-enterprise DBMS available that uses something close to their dialect so I figure actually hiring Oracle DBAs would be a nightmare.

These two factors combine to make me absolutely baffled at how completely Oracle has seemed to dominate every market but the private one (i.e. government, especially defense and educational). Have I been missing something about ways to actually get real world experience with Oracle?

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by ericbarrett on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:46PM (#28484076)
Oracle sells to executives, not technical staff.

Training on Oracle tech is via certified classes, provided “free” by your employer as part of their licensing deal; not online discovery.

Source: sold to and worked with Oracle Inc. for several years, got a front row seat at the sausage factory.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by gvenzl on Friday September 10, 2021 @06:23PM (#28487569)
Besides training for Oracle University, Oracle has a couple of free learning and training resources out there on the web too.

https://livesql.oracle.com --> A SQL scratchpad that also includes scripts and tutorials.

Oracle Live Labs (https://apexapps.oracle.com/pls/apex/dbpm/r/livelabs/home) --> Granted, while it's easier googled as "Oracle Live Labs" than to remember that URL, it does, however, provide free Hands-On Labs for users.

https://oracle.github.io/learning-library/ --> The instructions for the Hands-On Labs above and more can be found in the learning-library

asktom.oracle.com --> I fully free Q&A portal where you can ask Oracle Database employees for help. Furthermore, it offers regular "Office Hours" live webinars and an entire course of learning Oracle Database: https://asktom.oracle.com/databases-for-developers.htm

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by oldsecondhand on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:31PM (#28485429)
I've got to attend some free Oracle classes at uni (taught by Oracle employees), they were horribly boring. I don't think they'd have any chance at selling to technical staff even if they tried.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by MangoCoffee on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:25PM (#28485973)
>Oracle sells to executives, not technical staff.

agree. i have a year or two with Oracle Apex. at a pervious job, we were using Java to develop a web app but a executive saw how fast you can create a web page/app with Oracle Apex. we switch over since we already using Oracle for database.

Enterprise software is not targeting you (techies). its for CxOs.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by piyh on Friday September 10, 2021 @04:17PM (#28486416)
We kludged together an apex reporting solution to replace an old payroll UI. It was quick to work with in relation to the number of reports we were able to publish.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by laumars on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:47PM (#28485589)
It’s more than that. Oracle is sold off the back of its middleware applications. Which equally suck too…but at least they’re solving difficult problems that most other database vendors don’t both with.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by revscat on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:50PM (#28485622)
Such as?
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by laumars on Sunday September 12, 2021 @04:09AM (#28499422)
Such as enterprise level accountancy solutions, human resource packages, payroll solutions (which is the where I worked with Oracle) and so on and so forth.

A lot of the time when businesses by Oracle, they’re buying into the middleware rather than the RDBMS.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by chasil on Friday September 10, 2021 @07:08PM (#28487876)
All the apps they bought.

Siebel, PeopleSoft, BEA Weblogic.

I was the DBA for a Siebel instance for ten years.

I would say J.D. Edwards, but that's AS400/DB2.

SAP is also a big driver, although they don't want to be (so much so that they bought Sybase).

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by peapicker on Saturday September 11, 2021 @01:24AM (#28489612)
J.D.Edwards old World product was AS400, but EnterpriseOne (formerly OneWorld) is also Linux, Windows, AIX, Solaris, HPUX, and IBMi and is still very much alive. Runs on Oracle DB, MS SQL Server, and DB2.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by p_l on Saturday September 11, 2021 @08:33AM (#28491466)
In addition to Oracle owned middleware, it's common to end up running Oracle because your vendor supports only it.

Sometimes with somewhat sensible reasons, like Oracle combining clustering and in-memory encryption, but it still means you don't get to choose...

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by vbezhenar on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:50PM (#28484160)
Back in the day MS SQL was Windows-only and Postgres was not mature, so the choice was Oracle or DB2. And Oracle was more popular, because it used more progressive model (versions vs DB2 locks). Plenty of people who don't closely follow recent trends associate database with Oracle, so when they have a word, they'll choose it.

Oracle it not that bad anyway, it's just stupidly expensive. I'd choose Postgres any day, but I worked with Oracle a lot and it never was a main culprit in my work. It has its issues, sure, but they're solvable.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by marcosdumay on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:47PM (#28484907)
> Oracle it not that bad anyway, it's just stupidly expensive.

Full of bugs, some that destroy speed, some that destroy data, some that just make a feature that you need unusable. More heavyweight than lead (although it gets fast after you throw enough hardware). Lacking any capable or usable management interface (but then, that excludes everyone except for postgres and mysql). Impossible to program. Impossible to predict how your program will run.... And my favorite, absolutely fragile, any wrong code you run there can take everything out of the air.

And yeah, stupidly expensive and comes with the Oracle legal team.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by 35fbe7d3d5b9 on Friday September 10, 2021 @04:23PM (#28486475)
> comes with the Oracle legal team

This would've been sufficient, honestly.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by marcosdumay on Friday September 10, 2021 @05:00PM (#28486829)
That's a problem for the people working with contracts. I'm personally more concerned about the fragility, and the bugs.

Did I say it has bugs?

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by kaba0 on Saturday September 11, 2021 @02:45AM (#28489896)
Any source on the bugs?
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by marcosdumay on Saturday September 11, 2021 @01:09PM (#28493652)
The Oracle's documentation on bugs is paywalled... What is actually an improvement over others like Microsoft, that denies a bug with all their might, up to the point it is fixed, and then say the minimum possible.

Anyway the most recent pair I found on the wild was a problem that made indexes of georeferenced data fail at random, pushing your queries into a non-indexed search and breaking things like materialized views, and one that causes some inconsistency on testing clobs for null or empty string (what made them impossible to test for either when it applies). But there's a well known one that breaks optimization plans at random and goes with the last try (it doesn't matter if that it will scan that table 100000 rows 1000 times), and there's some bug where if you create some tables, populate them, drop them and repeat enough times you will lose your database. But that's just from the top of my head.

Oh, of course, that isn't including designed behaviors like the one that takes your database offline if you don't do backups often enough (where "often enough" is something that you can estimate but never be sure about its frequency).

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by laumars on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:44PM (#28485551)
There were more than just Oracle or DB2. Informix, SyBase, 4D and I’m pretty sure there was something with the word “fox” in its name too. Plus of course MySQL, though that was many taken seriously until relatively recently.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by chasil on Friday September 10, 2021 @07:12PM (#28487902)
Amazon sponsored a writeup at The Register on the difficulties of moving non-trvial databases off of Oracle.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/20/how_amazon_broke_free...

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by zabzonk on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:26PM (#28484646)
> so the choice was Oracle or DB2

Sybase, Ingres

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by tracker1 on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:52PM (#28485650)
Worth noting, that Microsoft SQL Server started life as a Sybase fork.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by johnthescott on Saturday September 11, 2021 @05:24PM (#28496187)
not so sure that is correct. ms sql WAS sybase from 1989 until the fork in 1993 and i have been told that substantial changes to the codebase did not occur until years after the 1993, during the jim gray tenure.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by briffle on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:59PM (#28486260)
Our Vendor offered Sybase in the mid 200x's as a choice for our college middleware, but they used 'case-insensitive' sort, which the linux version of Sybase did not work with.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by icedchai on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:14PM (#28485213)
Don't forget about Informix. Early 2000's had several commercial databases.

I worked at both a Sybase shop and an Oracle shop. I far preferred Sybase.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by myohmy on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:31PM (#28484737)
Potato Patahto
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by Joeri on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:30PM (#28486007)
Oracle is free to download and try out. It’s only when you want to use it in production that you get to know the heart of their business: the oracle sales team. They are pushy, and devious, and they never give up.

I spent about a decade working on a large system built on top of oracle. Once you get used to its idiosyncracies it is not actually that bad. It has a good query optimizer, so even badly written queries tend to perform ok. And if there is any DB feature you want, it probably has it. Whether you can afford that feature is a different matter.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by irrational on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:06PM (#28485774)
The problem is the Oracle dialect was created BEFORE the SQL standard was written. For backwards compatibility they never changed it after the SQL standard was written. Personally, I think they should have had a flag so you could choose whether to use standard SQL or Oracle SQL.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by thornygreb on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:22PM (#28485937)
Exactly, and many features that are in the standard now and we take for granted were invented by Oracle in the first place.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by peapicker on Saturday September 11, 2021 @01:33AM (#28489644)
ANSI SQL is a supported option in Oracle since 9i.

Not that most Oracle DB ppl use it anyway.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by chasil on Friday September 10, 2021 @07:14PM (#28487916)
It would be ever so nice if Microsoft SQL Server supported JOIN USING in addition to JOIN ON.

Everybody has problems.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by metadata on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:09PM (#28484441)
Postgres has Oracle layer, available as a commercial variant by EnterpriseDB. I don't think MariaDB implementation can compete, but EDB Postgres is solid. Basically a native implementation of Oracle in Postgres.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by chasil on Friday September 10, 2021 @07:17PM (#28487938)
The Oracle layer was also added to IBM DB2.

Which one? Good question. The mainframe, as/400, and Windows versions are all on separate source code last I heard.

https://www.enterprisedb.com/news/enterprisedb-and-ibmr-coll...

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by metadata on Saturday September 11, 2021 @02:51PM (#28494708)
DB2 LUW (Linux/Unix/Windows), DB2 iSeries, and DB2 z/OS are three different databases. With the same name - I guess for branding.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by garenp on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:47PM (#28484908)
Does it replicate the same kind of "evil" bugs as in the article, or does it provide an improvement?
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by metadata on Saturday September 11, 2021 @02:53PM (#28494726)
AFAIK it works exactly as Oracle. Doing something barely similar would probably introduce some very expensive bugs in production.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by indigo945 on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:57PM (#28484265)
Point 2 is no longer true. MariaDB has an Oracle compatibility layer now.
Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by zip1234 on Friday September 10, 2021 @04:09PM (#28486349)
Oracle is a decent product with all the features that you could want if you are an Enterprise and in addition they have the support for all that. Postgres has most if not all of them at this point, but if you want support you have to pick from one of many vendors.

Having used many RDBMS, one thing I very much liked about Oracle was the bitmap index. Very very useful for some performance issues that a b-tree cannot solve.

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by namdnay on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:24PM (#28485330)
> but the private on

Oracle was massive in the private sector 10 years ago, and it probably still is once you dig past the surface layer of nosql

Don’t forget that for a long term it was either Oracle or DB2

Re:Problems with Oracle SQL by munk-a on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:09PM (#28485807)
I haven't ever worked at a giganto company myself - even though I've worked with largeish amounts of data... from multi-teribyte pyradmically stored JPEG2000s to 50GB tables of raw rows parsed from ridiculously long documents. I suspect some big places are indeed using Oracle - but notably large companies are still using MySQL or Postgres to great effect (i.e. Facebook).