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Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by madeofpalk on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:51AM (#28483249)
Just to be clear here (and this fact doesn't really detract from your point) - Apple Pay is very different to Apple's In App Purchases. Apple Pay can be used anyhere, and it could still be used if a company rolls their own purchase system on their website that they link to from the app. Apple only gets a very minor % cut of Apple Pay transactions, from the bank, compared to Apple IAP where Apple gets 30% from the developer.

Besides, isn't the competition here what we want? Apple IAP are still easier, and probably will convert at a higher rate than pushing a user outside the app to do the payment on a website, so there's still incentives for developers to use them. If Apps switch away from IAP, then Apple is incentivised to actually compete (imagine that!!) and make something better that developers actively want to use.

It says something about the state of competition where Netflix can just say "no, we no longer want people to sign up on an iPhone and give us money". That says they don't think IAP is good, and Apple should actually work on building something that companies want to use.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by ghosty141 on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:36PM (#28485480)
>isn't the competition here what we want?

In my opinion not in this specific case. As an iOS user I WANT a system where everything conforms to certain guidelines. I do NOT want to fiddle with some weird custom in-App payment dialog which does it's own thing again.

It'll be interesting to see how this court order will be "implemented", my guess is that not much will change for now.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by widowlark on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:40PM (#28486083)
you will still be able to do this, at a 30% premium through IAP
Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by dodobirdlord on Friday September 10, 2021 @04:47PM (#28486699)
Yea, but obviously no company will offer that option unless forced. This decision undeniably benefits app developers, but the benefit to customers is murkier.

Apple couldn’t previously require payment flow through Apple’s payment systems, as evidenced by apps like Audible where you have no purchasing in the app and just have access to the content that you purchased through their website. Since Apple couldn’t outright force app vendors to monetize through Apple payment channels, their cudgel has been to ensure that app vendors have no way to link to external purchase options in the app, and hope that this was inconvenient enough for app vendors that they would choose to integrate with Apple’s payment channels. And it worked for most, but not all of them. Some apps, like Audible, just chose to live with having no way to sell anything from the app.

If Apple can’t even do that, they lose the ability to provide for their customers a consistent payment experience across apps.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by iknowstuff on Friday September 10, 2021 @06:23PM (#28487572)
They did try to force companies to monetize through them.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/8/21506995/apple-forced-in-...

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by dodobirdlord on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:52PM (#28488795)
This is an example of application of the policy I described.

> “They stumbled upon something in the app that mentioned there were paid plans, they went to the website and saw there was a subscription you could purchase, and then turned around and demanded we add IAP.”

> Today, Apple confirmed to us once again that the rule is more lenient than it sounds: “free apps acting as a stand-alone companion to a paid web based tool” don’t need to use IAP as long as the apps themselves don’t offer purchases, and as long as the apps themselves don’t ask users to make purchases outside the app.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by majani on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:43PM (#28486113)
My guess is Apple will force developers to provide a drop down of payment options with Apple Pay as the default
Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by DrSiemer on Saturday September 11, 2021 @04:10AM (#28490270)
They might try to force developers to offer Apple IAP as an option for centralized in app purchases. I don't think they can enforce the default setting though.

And developers will have the right to offer a cheaper non-centralized in-house IAP payment system, of course.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by chii on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:25PM (#28489197)
apple pay is not the same as Apple's In App Purchases on iOS.

Apple pay is like a credit card, usable like one. IAP is the method by which apple forces app developers who sell through their app to pay the apple tax.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by tshaddox on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:14PM (#28485854)
> Besides, isn't the competition here what we want?

Depends what you mean. The subtlety that is always lost in these conversation on HN is how deep does the competition have to go? I don't think anyone seriously argues that iPhones do not have viable competition in the smartphone market. And yet, if I as a consumer want to use a smartphone which places strong restrictions on third-party developers (which is one of the most significant reason I use iPhones and recommend them to friends and family), somehow those restrictions are considered "anti-competitive." If these restrictions are lifted or prohibited, that clearly removes one of the key differences between iPhones and their competitors (mostly Android phones), and it baffles me that this could be construed as a more competitive smartphone market for consumers.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by zamalek on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:05PM (#28488559)
> which places strong restrictions on third-party developers

Malware isn't under the probe here; IAP is. Apple's behavior has been objectively awful specifically concerning the subject being discussed. Broadening the argument to Apple's desirable curation process is a misrepresentation of the issue.

People will continue to be able to enjoy the convenience of Apple IAP. Savvy users might seek better prices externally - but convenience does hold immense value. Developers can now also, as a pertinent example, ask for donations for open source projects without being taken down.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by paulmd on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:53PM (#28488800)
Malware was absolutely under probe here until today’s ruling (which closed the door to forcing Apple to allow sideloading).

Had third party app stores/sideloading been allowed to happen as epic demanded, that would have made it impossible for any app sufficiently large enough to demand it from their users.

The risk here was very much a return to the Google/FB “gift cards for root access” scheme, minus the gift cards of course, if they had prevailed they would have just blocked web access to iOS and just demanded you root yourself for them if you want to use their service.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-...

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by true_religion on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:24PM (#28488946)
On the other hand if we had sideloading, we could finally get a browser on iOS that isn’t just Safari reskinned.

Mayne then we would have PWAs that work the same way everywhere.

The existence of competition might even motivate Apple themselves to adopting new video codecs and image formats that weren’t invented inside of Apple Hq.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by throwaway_73849 on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:48PM (#28489037)
Go buy a different phone. No one is forcing you to support Apple, and if you already use Android, get off your high horse and stop screwing with a product I like and you don’t.
Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by zamalek on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:11PM (#28489133)
> Go buy a different phone.

The plaintiff here is a developer, not a fan of any specific device.

"Just don't develop for the phone, then."

Great, who's going to pay out the lost sales?

Also, assuming I "just don't buy an Apple device," I can [legally] develop an app on my Windows or Linux device?

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by zamalek on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:04PM (#28489099)
> The risk here was very much a return to the Google/FB

Only Google?[1]

In addition, there's a very steep slippery slope in use here. It is currently possible to sideload on Android, and has been since day one, and yet we don't see the kind of end result you have predicted.

[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/06/apple-hulu-special-api-...

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by tshaddox on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:07PM (#28488566)
I'm not only talking about malware either.

> Apple's behavior has been objectively awful specifically concerning the subject being discussed.

Certainly not objectively. I would very strongly prefer an Apple ecosystem with no in-app purchases at all!

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by maccard on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:07PM (#28483523)
> and it could still be used

But it's not guaranteed to be, which is a huge loss for the app store IMO.

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by jackson1442 on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:43PM (#28485543)
Agreed. I think a fair plan would be

* lower IAP to 15% with an option to pay a higher dev license fee to lower it to maybe 7-10%.

* require that any IAP has an _option_ to use Apple’s IAP system within day 20% of the offsite price

* physical goods stay on the same system, but potentially offer some kind of carrot to implement Apple Pay

Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by ApolloFortyNine on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:46PM (#28484898)
Apple would also likely drop their cut from 30% overnight. Maybe not to 3% like Paypal, but low enough where companies would have to think.
Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by madeofpalk on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:48PM (#28484922)
For context, Netflix was getting 15% in some markets and that was not enough to keep them on IAP.
Re:Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case by mr_toad on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:16PM (#28488914)
Netflix is in a fairly unique position. They have a good brand, and most customers probably watch Netflix mainly on non Apple devices.