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Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by habitue on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @01:44AM (#28453485)
They're guaranteeing it in the same way that when you buy a corporate bond with a 4% yield, you're guaranteed to get the money[0]. A bond is still a security.

[0] Right? Counterparty risk!

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by modeless on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @01:51AM (#28453526)
Not all loans are bonds though. How does the law define the difference?
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @01:56AM (#28453567)
> Not all loans are bonds though. How does the law define the difference?

Bonds are raised from a diverse set of investors. Loans, in securities parlance, are raised from (and syndicated by) regulated banks.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by alasdair_ on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:08AM (#28453633)
Individuals can loan money to other individuals, no? They can even agree to pay interest if they want, or am I missing something?
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by eru on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:14AM (#28453670)
When you are giving a loan to your friend or a business partner, you are not engaging with the general public.

Similar, you can sell shares in your business to your friend or business partner, but if you want to sell to the general public, the SEC is interested.

(I have no clue whether this distinction is the important legal one here.)

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by throwaway2037 on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:03AM (#28453995)
Bonds are also registered investments which strict regulations about marketing (IPO), trading, and settlement. In some markets, "private placement" bonds are possible, but there are still many rules to follow created by financial regulators.

A cursory search of "loan vs bond" yields many interesting results. I am sure the variance matters from market to market.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by rjknight on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:04AM (#28453608)
But all contracts have some element of counterparty risk. Contractual guarantees are just contractual, nobody can give absolute guarantees of anything.
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @05:58AM (#28455057)
> But all contracts have some element of counterparty risk. Contractual guarantees are just contractual, nobody can give absolute guarantees of anything.

Yes...and? Are you trying to explain why, when other Howey-test factors are present, a fixed-return guarantee does not alter the determination that an offer is a security, or argue against it? Because it seems like you are trying to do the latter while actually doing the former.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by kybernetikos on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:18AM (#28453694)
Lots of defi has no counterparty risk. Much of it is over collateralised and managed by smart contacts.

There is of course software risk in the smart contract (although I think people underestimate that in conventional finance too).

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by arisAlexis on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:48AM (#28453884)
What you are saying is totally debunked by the sheer number of Defi hacks,rug pulls and exoloits the previous year resulting in billions of lost money. That defi has no counterparty risk is probably one of thr all time wrong sentences on HN.
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by kybernetikos on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:18AM (#28454098)
> That defi has no counterparty risk is probably one of thr all time wrong sentences on HN

Which is why I didn't say it. One of the nice features of smart contract platforms is that any two people can quickly set up a transaction where they swap a basket of assets for another basket of assets atomically and without counterparty risk. To get similar guarantees in tradfi requires either an underwriter (that we assume can't go bust) or escrow (with a party we both completely trust).

Smart contract systems are of course infinitely flexible, and some of the most useful kinds of systems you might want to build are not overcollateralized, but those that are can liquidate automatically with no counterparty risk.

Your comment seems to treat 'defi' as just one thing. It's not. There're a huge range of products offered, with risk ranging from lower than lots of traditional products to crazy high.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by ac29 on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:44AM (#28454295)
> they swap a basket of assets for another basket of assets atomically and without counterparty risk.

Of course there is counterparty risk - the contract writer could be adversarial. People dont always audit smart contracts (or may not realistically be able to, especially if the contract writer is attempting to obfuscate a subtle bug they can use for their own advantage). Thats the point of the above comment.

If the traditional world, courts would interpret such a contract as not valid. In the DeFi world, code is law - at least until law enforcement and regulatory agencies catch up to it.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by kybernetikos on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @04:29AM (#28454539)
> the contract writer could be adversarial

Fair enough, if you consider that to be counterparty risk. I prefer to think of that as an entirely separate kind of risk ('software risk'). This is partly because these contracts can be written by entirely separate parties having nothing to do with the counterparty (and sometimes provided as public infrastructure, since they don't cost the writer anything beyond the initial deployment cost).

I suppose to some extent it depends whether you consider the smart contract itself as a virtual counterparty that could default either through malicious coding or through bugs that allow hackers to steal assets.

I also don't see any problem with combining smart contracts and real legal contracts. If someone scams you in the DeFi world, they're scamming you in the real world too. I know that at least the UK Supreme Court has ruled that digital assets are property at common law.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by qeternity on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:22AM (#28454137)
> Lots of defi has no counterparty risk. Much of it is over collateralised and managed by smart contacts.

There is no such thing as overcollateralization. Higher levels of collateral are required against higher levels of risk. If one party is required to post "excess" collateral, that's because the risk is greater than whatever you think it is.

The very fact that certain DeFi projects dealing in things like stablecoins require obscene collateral is proof that there is tremendous risk...and the high levels of collateral are an attempt to mitigate some of that.

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by quickthrower2 on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @02:22AM (#28453727)
The security of the Ethereum network is the counterparty
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:14AM (#28454078)
The network itself? That seems pretty safe to me. Even if other nodes get hacked, you can run your own.
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by NicoJuicy on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:21AM (#28454127)
> Lots of defi has no counterparty risk

Euh... https://rekt.news/

Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by kybernetikos on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @03:26AM (#28454169)
Those stories look like they're mainly the software risk I was referring to in my comment.
Re:The SEC has told us it wants to sue us over Lend. We don’... by NicoJuicy on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @04:31AM (#28454562)
What's defi without the software?