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Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by CodesInChaos on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:53AM (#28434915)
I don't think security updates are quite enough. Sometimes you need updates to keep functioning. For example support for TLS 1.0/1.1 or older signature algorithms was widely removed, which can prevent old clients from connecting to most servers.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by everdrive on Monday September 06, 2021 @11:56AM (#28434951)
Would deprecated TLS not fall into the "security" category? It's hardly a feature.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by CodesInChaos on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:47PM (#28436165)
I view this as a breaking change in the behaviour of many internet servers, which happened to be motivated by security. Which is different from fixing the security of the software on the device.

Some other examples of non security issues that might require modifications:

* Widespread adoption hosting multiple services on the same IP, relying on SNI for TLS to function. While this is in TLS as well, it's not a security issue. In practice it was adopted slowly enough that it didn't cause many problems

* A quick switch from IPv4 to IPv6 (lol)

* Y2K (happened before smartphones)

* timezone database changes (e.g. if the EU abolishes DST)

* Regulatory changes (e.g. which frequencies the phone may send on)

* A third party service the phone relies on for essential functionality gets shut down

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by 0xcde4c3db on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:04PM (#28435054)
As a practical matter, it's a far cry from something like backporting a vulnerability patch. How likely is it that you can actually get TLS 1.(N+1) without a breaking change to an API?
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by krageon on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @08:58AM (#28444170)
It does, plainly. Just like not using MD5 is a security concern and patching that out would be a security patch.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Monday September 06, 2021 @04:05PM (#28437460)
Android 5.0 is considered as the first version fully supporting TLS 1.2 according to https://support.globalsign.com/ssl/general-ssl/tls-protocol-.... It was released end of 2014, so nearing 7 years.

Wikipedia indeed no longer supports TLS 1.1, i.e. if the phone didn't receive any updates beyond security updates, it'd be broken.

This seems to have happened around 2019: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T238038

I'm honestly surprised, I expected the overlap between "everything new supports this" and "actually turned off" to be bigger.

So realistically, after 5 years without updates, the phone would be a brick. That's still 3 more useful years for people who care about security, and perhaps more importantly, 3 years where people who don't know about the importance of security updates or can't afford to care remain secure. This also assumes no non-security updates at all.

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by strenholme on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:20PM (#28438231)
the phone would be a brick

Well, to be fair here, the phone would still be able to make phone calls and send/receive texts, so it would hardly be a brick.

As a practical matter, stuff like supporting a newer version of TLS is at the application, not the OS level, so the user would just have to get an update with their browser to be able to use newer TLS. [1] Supporting newer TLS, for a browser, is little more than recompiling the browser; even stuff like Lynx and newer builds of Dillo have current TLS support.

[1] Windows XP stopped being updated by Microsoft in 2014 [2] but Firefox up until 52.9.0 (2018) runs in Windows XP.

[2] The post-2014 point of sale updates were quite limited in scope, and can not be seen as general OS updates

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @02:13PM (#28447952)
True, the brick was an exaggeration. I thought about the "applications bundling SSL libraries", but especially on a phone, I expect enough things to break to result in a user experience that most would not be willing to accept.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by strenholme on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @01:57AM (#28453568)
For me, if my phone still made phone calls, still sent texts, still got critical security updates, but I were forced to get Firefox from the app store to browse the modern TLS 1.2 web, I would consider it still quite usable.

For the average user who doesn’t know about security, having their phone updated w.r.t. security but having the phone’s built in browser break because it doesn’t work with modern TLS websites would be much better than having them have their phone compromised and critical information given to hackers. They would be able to get a new phone (or download another browser) if they want a modern browser with modern TLS; that’s a very different rodeo than the current situation of “update your phone or have security problems” with phones not even five years old.

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by fulafel on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @12:02AM (#28440803)
Browsers don't have to use the base os TLS libs.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by Fradow on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @07:49AM (#28455713)
In fact, Chrome does use its own TLS libs and don't have any trouble connecting on TLS 1.2 on Android 4.4.

On the other hand, nearly every application use the base OS TLS libs and cannot connect anymore to servers that disabled TLS 1.0/1.1 on Android 4.4.

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by fulafel on Thursday September 09, 2021 @12:54AM (#28466371)
Yep. But this is probably a good thing, since those out of date libs are likely to be vulnerable from today's POV.

To engineer the app work remotely safely on such vendor-abandoned devices you need to basically assume you're running on a malware or rootkit compromised device, and just hope that by using your self bundled components you'll have better chances to survive in the core wars game because your app is not being specifically targeted.

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Tuesday September 07, 2021 @02:13PM (#28447935)
True, but I expect enough things to break that no non-desperate person would want to use that.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by rex_lupi on Monday September 06, 2021 @12:13PM (#28435166)
yes, security updates are really not enough. just consider the case of app permission hardenings on latest android versions (12/11/10)
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by laurent92 on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:54PM (#28436239)
I doubt vendors will implement 2-stream updates. Mandating 7 years probably means we’ll all have to use the most recent version.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by iso1631 on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:01PM (#28435706)
Weren't phones in 2014 using TLS 1.2? It was specified in 2008.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by CodesInChaos on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:50PM (#28436195)
TLS adoption has been surprisingly slow historically. I don't know if any phones were affected. But .net on Windows 7 ran into issues with TLS deprecation (TLS 1.2 was disabled by default). And I think Windows update on Windows 7 and/or 8 broke due to upgraded certificate hashes.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by pvorb on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:16PM (#28435854)
Sure, but if you deprecated TLS 1.2 today, you'd have to make sure that all devices that are less than 7 years old will get the update.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by iso1631 on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:18PM (#28435876)
Is anyone talking about deprecating TLS 1.2 before 2025? (TLS 1.3 being specified in 2018 )
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by oaiey on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:55PM (#28436251)
TLS standards are deprecated by vulnerabilities not new Features.
Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by iso1631 on Monday September 06, 2021 @03:12PM (#28436932)
If phones normally receive say 2 years of updates, any phone built since 2016 - thus eol in 2023, should support it (chrome/firefox were supporting tls 1.3 in 2017) - i.e in the next 18 months.

A vulnerability in TLS1.2 would need to be fixed (by implementing TLS1.3) in 7 years under "security patching".

Re:Germany wants smartphone makers to offer 7 years of softw... by bbarnett on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:27PM (#28439560)
One thing, sometimes phones are released, but manufactured for 2 or 3 years, plus sit on store shelves for a year after that.

Today, you can often find such new phones on sale, yet already? No security updates. End of support.

So the life of a phone model before you even buy it new, may be years...