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Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by playcache on Monday September 06, 2021 @01:45AM (#28430733)
I wonder how many folks that are taking Melatonin are coffee drinkers?

I spent years trying to crack my sleep issues. Blackout curtains, magnesium malate / citrate, no electronic devices for an hour before bed, CBD oil, even stronger CBD oil, different doses of Melatonin, 5-HTP, valerian extract, sleep apnea tests.

It never really significantly occured to me that it would be coffee as I believed I had ruled this out. I was already stopping coffee at 12pm and tried to limit to two cups. I also enjoyed coffee a lot, I spent good money on artisan roasted beans, a grinder and an aeropress (including one for travelling). Coffee is good for you right, antioxidants etc! Everyone drinks coffee and I can get it anywhere 24/7.

I decided it must be worth trying to drop it as an elimination test to see if it might help. I came across a reddit comment from a google search, where someone had quit caffeine and had a lot of success.

First few attempts failed, but eventually managed to get a day one out of the way (the stuff is addictive).

First 3-4 days were tough to put it mildly, constant pumping headaches and extreme fatigue. However around day 5 something wonderful happened. I had one of the most deep satisfying sleeps I had in years, it was like the sort of sleep a child has. Deep R.E.M level sleep with a vivid dream. I work up with a feeling of being deeply nourished. I actually cried as I was so happy I had found an answer.

I am now caffeine free for 10 months and I can still feel myself healing and the layers of the onion being peeled away. I very rarely get anxious now and my productivity at work is back at where it was when drinking coffee, but the difference is my focus is much better. On coffee I was like a scatter gun, whereas now it's more of a less manic focus.

I continue to sleep great, all night, no more 3 am wake ups. On the rare occasion that I do wake, I don't find myself in this delirium / anxious state where I proceed to toss and turn, instead I feel really at ease and drop off again.

Caffeine really gets played down as harmless (and perhaps for some it may be), but there are so many folks around that are suffering with sleep issues that could solve this by quitting. Caffeine binds to your adenosine-receptors. When adenosine binds to its receptors, neural activity slows down, and you feel sleepy. Adenosine facilitates sleep and dilates the blood vessels, probably to ensure good oxygenation during sleep. Caffeine blocks these receptors thereby removing the feeling of being sleepy. Studies are limited, but I wonder if the long term impact of playing with your biochemistry day after day for years has a bigger impact than we know of. It also increases cortisol the stress hormone, so this is where the anxiety comes from, cortisol is akin to 'fight or flight'.

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by Tenoke on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:36AM (#28431973)
Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality. I've quit it for months at a time but it hasn't made me feel less tired when I do, the opposite in fact.

Of course, there's people like you for which it helps less than hurts but all large studies I can find suggest you are in the minority, not majority.

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by playcache on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:02AM (#28432490)
> Caffeine is not just harmless, every meta-analysis suggests it's beneficial for the majority and actively reduces all-cause mortality.

You're conflating caffeine with coffee, specifically coffees non-caffeine properties.

If you're referring to the Harvard study, that is coffee and its antioxidant properties, they even state [0] "and it doesn’t appear to matter if the coffee is caffeinated or decaf, brewed or instant."

The same antioxidants are widely available in many plant based foods and beyond, something lacking in an American diet, so coffee in that context is beneficial I guess.

However, the caffeine in itself does nothing to reduce mortality, its primary role in plants is an insecticide. In humans its classed as a neurotoxin.

caffeine has no health benefits, beyond cognitive, so sure it might stop you crashing your car if driving tired, but that's about the extent of it.

[0] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/coffee-lo...

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by Tenoke on Monday September 06, 2021 @07:35AM (#28432693)
Yes, I meant coffee though other common methods of ingesting caffeine like tea don't seem to be far off. And no, there's other studies (not sure which one this is from the article you linked).

This recent meta-analysis reviews 40 studies.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31055709/

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by playcache on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:30AM (#28433026)
The linked meta-study also out rules caffeine

> An inverse association between coffee consumption and all-cause mortality was maintained irrespective of age, overweight status, alcohol drinking, smoking status, and caffeine content of coffee.

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by pengaru on Monday September 06, 2021 @03:49AM (#28431434)
FWIW I've found supplementing Lions Mane interacts very nicely with caffeine.

It takes the edge off the caffeine high, and largely eliminates all the awful withdrawal symptoms when quitting.

For decades I stayed away from the stuff because I'm quite sensitive to it and hate the quick forming dependency. Lions Mane has put it back on the table as a useful productivity boosting tool. I no longer even bat an eye about quitting cold turkey after a solid week of heavy use. If I know the next day will be the cessation day, I'll take an extra Lions Mane before bed and the next day won't even have the slightest headache.

Still waiting for the other shoe to drop on this, because so far there hasn't been any negative side effects. Though it may be worth noting when taking the supplement at night I tend to wake up in a semi lucid dreaming state, which is otherwise uncommon for me.

YMMV

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by hedberg10 on Monday September 06, 2021 @08:48AM (#28433154)
I share your experiences with caffeine withdrawal.

I bought a really good Espresso machine. Quite fun, for me. Now I drink a really good cup on a sunday and then go a few days without even.

There is nothing that can touch it. Not the free coffee at work, which I now regard as insidious, or coffee places. They usually ruin the milk, if you hear an unpleasant sound while steaming, they are doing it wrong.

Also works with alcohol and food for me. We have too much of everything, hence why fasting is such a real life cheat code, but nothing of quality.

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by hoten on Monday September 06, 2021 @03:45AM (#28431413)
Once I learned the half-life of caffeine is 5-9 hours, I started a rule where I only had caffeinated coffee before noon, and decaf after. Night and day difference (heh) in my sleep quality.

Perhaps 12pm didn't work for you because caffeine stuck around longer in your body compared to mine. Did you ever try an earlier cutoff time?

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by playcache on Monday September 06, 2021 @04:47AM (#28431709)
I don't think there is a hard rule around half life times, individuals metabolise it differently. Its also not just about the caffeine leaving your system, but the impact of cortisol being increased along with any other stresses you might have on any given day.

I honestly prefer not drinking it all now. I operate better, feel more relaxed and its nice not having an addictive dependence to plan around (although its a less problematic one as coffee addiction is well catered towards). It's one of the best things I have ever done to improve my life, why would I want to try and sneak a bit back in.

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by gwynplaine on Monday September 06, 2021 @09:32AM (#28433461)
The effect of caffeine is controlled by several genes. One is the CYP1A2 gene that encodes for a liver enzyme critical for the metabolism of caffeine. Another is the AHR gene, which controls when and how the CYP1A2 gene is switched on and off. The general population have variants of these genes and so experience different response to similar doses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777290/

Re:Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know (2018) by xvedejas on Monday September 06, 2021 @04:14AM (#28431572)
Same here, except a 3pm cutoff has been adequate. That said, I usually have just one cup a day, and many (most?) other coffee drinkers seem to have more per day than I do. How long it stays in the body is about both how much coffee _and_ how late.

If I were a heavy enough coffee drinker, maybe I'd even have to limit myself to before 10am only, to get sleep improvements?