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Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by holler on Sunday September 05, 2021 @01:58PM (#28426241)
The barber shop I went to for years used to charge $35 for a haircut pre-pandemic, which with a ~$10 tip ($45) already felt real high.

Now a haircut is $50 and I no longer go, opting instead to cut my own hair w help from my girlfriend.

Maybe people don’t want $50 haircuts.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by ljm on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:05PM (#28426328)
In that case you'd be justified in not paying the tip, surely? The effective price beforehand was $45, since you weren't really tippin, just subsidising the employer.

They just bumped the price by 5 bucks and dispensed with the pricing trickery by paying proper wages.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tayo42 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:10PM (#28426372)
The United States really needs to kill tipping culture off
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by dudul on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:19PM (#28426430)
Why? What would be different for the customer? The tip would just be rolled into the price of the service to amount to the same number, and quality of service would probably go down. Employees would also be taxed on the "tip" (which would now be included in their base salary). So what would really be the benefit?

And I'm not trying to be dismissive at all. Coming from Europe I also thought initially that tipping was really weird, but after living with it for a decade+ I got used to it and I'm really curious as to why we should stop doing it.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by jzb on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#28426554)
Have you ever worked a job that depends on tips? Try serving a table of 20 and working your butt off and then getting no tip from the table because they "don't believe in tipping."

The correlation between "great service" and getting a good tip is nowhere near a 1:1. It sucks to go to work and not know whether you're going to come home with enough money to pay your bills this week, because you might get lucky or you might get a stream of tightwads.

I'd be OK with tipping if people made a baseline living wage and the tips were for service above and beyond the usual. I'm not OK with the current standard.

If you can't be persuaded that it's unfair to the workers, realize it's also unfair to you as a customer. Because people can't be reliably counted upon to tip their fair share, you need to over-tip if you care about people making a fair wage.

And the perception of a "fair" tip has gone up noticeably in my lifetime -- 10-15% used to be a reasonable tip when I was in my teens and early 20s. Now it's crept up to 15-20% and spread to a lot of jobs that you didn't think of for tips (e.g., somebody handing you a coffee) because wages suck.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by danaris on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:27PM (#28427468)
> Now it's crept up to 15-20% and spread to a lot of jobs that you didn't think of for tips

...And, importantly, there's no way to actually know this because it's all informal.

I keep hearing that some places are now expecting 25% tips, while others are still repeating the older 15-20% figure. Some transportation workers (cab drivers, hotel courtesy van drivers) expect tips—others, in exactly the same job but a different company, don't expect them or even refuse them.

The informality of it all is one of the biggest reasons why tipping culture needs to die, and be replaced with actually paying workers a fair amount to start with.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by gregmac on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:23PM (#28426975)
> Now it's crept up to 15-20% and spread to a lot of jobs that you didn't think of for tips (e.g., somebody handing you a coffee) because wages suck.

A couple days ago I had my oil changed at once of those drive-through places and the payment terminal had a prompt for a tip.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by beagle3 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:39PM (#28426594)
I’ll counter with a question: do you tip when you buy a new laptop? At the grocery store when buying milk? If so, how much? If not, why not?

As a customer, I want to know the real costs ahead of time.

As an employee (last received tips some 30 years ago, but still…) I would like to get paid for the work I did, not that 50% of my pay would be contingent on how authentic I can make my fake smile look on a stressful day.

I usually tip 20% wherever I am because I am too lazy to figure out the local culture and because I can afford to; but I seriously hate it.

Visiting Germany 15 years ago was a bliss in this respect - the expectation was to round up to the nearest euro, if any tip at all. But I understand that now, at least in Berlin, 10%-20% tip has become the norm.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:29PM (#28426516)
It undermines the norm that employees should be paid for their labor regardless of what the customer thinks --- that they can be fired of course but not underpaid for the labor already performed

It undermines the norm that businesses should pay their damn taxes.

To wit, we have been able to put off discussing the non-profitability of restaurants for far too long until now. Remember, it is quite arguable that Baumol's cost disease = "progress", not by definition, but by bi-implication.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tayo42 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:26PM (#28426494)
The experience and price would be consistent. I would know what I'm paying every time instead of trying to figure out what the extra 20% is or try to judge based off the items. Its much nicer going to restaurants out side of the country because you can just pay. There's no worrying about if I'm tipping right or enough or judging the service.

Also covid and those ipad paying terminals have turned every job into a tip job. Every cashier wants a tip now. And they ask you if you want to tip becasue no one can touch the terminals. Which is awkward to say no to. I see/hear people leaving ridiculous tips for take out. I had one terminal for take out not have a "no tip" option. I had to manually type in $0.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by b3morales on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#28426553)
> Employees would also be taxed on the "tip" (which would now be included in their base salary)

Tips are income already, and are taxed as such. You can get away with not reporting it if it's a few extra bucks from a jar on a counter. But if you're a "tipped employee" (and thus eligible to be paid sub-minimum wage) you report them to your employer, who then reports them to the IRS, and does tax withholding same as for wages.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tchaffee on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:27PM (#28427026)
That's a naive understanding of what's really happening at most restaurants. Cash tips are almost always significantly under-reported. It's nowhere near as low as "tip jar on the counter" amounts.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by b3morales on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:27PM (#28427467)
Yes, of course there is underreporting; nothing in my comment says otherwise.

I'm not following your point. Since some people cheat on their taxes, they shouldn't be paid wages instead, because then they wouldn't be able to underreport as easily?

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tchaffee on Sunday September 05, 2021 @04:46PM (#28427624)
My point was that the under-reporting is in much larger amounts than your claim that "You can get away with not reporting it if it's a few extra bucks from a jar on a counter."

> Since some people cheat on their taxes, they shouldn't be paid wages instead, because then they wouldn't be able to underreport as easily?

How did you get this from what I said? I said nothing to that effect. Not even close. My point was very simple.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ekaros on Monday September 06, 2021 @05:59AM (#28432097)
Why shouldn't all workers and corporations report all income and pay taxes on them?
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by holler on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:20PM (#28426446)
That may be true, but $45 already felt like the upper limit so even a $5 increment feels like too much (my hair is short afterall!)
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tsian2 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:35PM (#28426564)
Wouldn't $50 now be worth less than the original $45 "years ago", considering inflation?
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by sdgawrgdsfds on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:01PM (#28426787)
Barbers, like tattoo artists, strippers, and relief veterinarians, freelance.

The house gets a percentage per head. You're really tipping.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by smsm42 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:54PM (#28427228)
So you're saying the proper response for the employer acting to raise pay to the line workers by raising prices is for you, as a customer, to act to lower pay to the line workers by stopping the tips? That'd show the greedy owner! Surely in some world that must make sense... but it's not our world.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by ljm on Sunday September 05, 2021 @05:53PM (#28428183)
I'm obviously not in the US, but this is a patently absurd perspective as it would then dictate that I am lowering pay to a lineworker by no longer being a customer. Where is the actual business's culpability in that twisted transaction?

I've just impoverished one barista at Starbucks because today I went to Cafe Nero instead! And I'm no longer a regular at my local Italian joint, so I've just deprived a few more people of an income.

For some reason you think this is about sticking it to the man but it's not. The staff get a stable, living wage and the business is charging prices much more in line with reality. I'm also no longer personally liable for the income of whoever served me, because the rightful responsibility for that lies on the employer.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by smsm42 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @06:00PM (#28428229)
> I am lowering pay to a lineworker by no longer being a customer

As an individual customer, not likely since line workers' pay does not directly depend on the number of customers served (at least until it's so low that the business goes under and they have to move to unemployment benefits instead). Tips depend on each customer though, so if you chose Starbucks over Cafe Nero, and Starbucks barristas don't get tips, but Cafe Nero's ones customarily do, then yes, your choice had influence on the income of Cafe Nero's barrista. Probably a small one, but it's there. If neither barrista gets tips (I've never seen anybody to tip a Starbucks barrista but in smaller shops it happens sometimes, though much less frequent than with waiters) then there's not much difference from a single individual action.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by tssva on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:43PM (#28426635)
There are plenty of barbershops in my area which charge $50 for a haircut but there are many more that charge $18. Having been to a selection of both the difference is mostly the level of interior decoration and not the quality of the haircut. The choice being between a $50 haircut and having your girlfriend do it at home is a false one.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ballas on Monday September 06, 2021 @02:02AM (#28430855)
I'd easily pay $50 for the convenience of having it done at home - easily worth it just for the time saved.

If your girlfriend can do it for you, that's worth a lot more than the money saved. So in my view once you have established that your girlfriend can do it, that is the better choice regardless of price.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by holler on Monday September 06, 2021 @04:05PM (#28437466)
this brings up something I've wondered about, why not start a gig barber app? you sign up and someone shows up at your house/work/wherever and cuts your hair
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Sylamore on Monday September 06, 2021 @06:04PM (#28438617)
In the US, State occupational licensing laws for one. You can't cut someone else's hair without a license in most states. In my state you can't even dog/cat sit for someone for money unless you are going to their house because you need a kennel license to have them stay at your house if they aren't your pet.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by detaro on Monday September 06, 2021 @04:08PM (#28437492)
This kind of app has the problem that people would use it 1-3 times and then just directly call whoever they liked to make the next appointment, cutting the app out of the deal.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by jzb on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:37PM (#28426580)
As a guy who gets a pretty standard, quick-and-easy cut, I get this. At the same time, $50 a month or whatever is pretty cheap compared to what I looked like after my partner tried her hand at cutting my hair at the start of the pandemic.

$50 or look like I've got the mange? I'll pay the $50!

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by holler on Sunday September 05, 2021 @07:55PM (#28428913)
lol! it took a few tries but she got it down and luckily enjoys doing it so far... saving me $50/month!
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:05PM (#28426324)
That's fine, then. We shouldn't assume a certain service or job is productive enough to exist because it used to be in the past. If barbershops need to go the way of horse liveries, that's OK.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by ineedasername on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:32PM (#28426539)
Somehow people are going to need to get their hair cut, so this isn't going to be a horse liveries situation. More people may sacrifice quality or preference for a specific style & do it themselves. Some people might get shorter haircuts so they don't need one as often, maybe trim thing around the edges in between paid haircuts. Some people will be price elastic and pay higher prices.

The economics and behaviors may change, but the need won't go away.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:42PM (#28426626)
You answered your own points! Prol buzz cuts, and luxury hair salons. Eventually automation might step in.

If Khrushchyovkas are ugly but efficient apartments, then let's call the hair style a "Khru cut" hee hee hee.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by pengaru on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:29PM (#28426507)
> We shouldn't assume a certain service or job is productive enough to exist because it used to be in the past. If barbershops need to go the way of horse liveries, that's OK

Automobiles replaced horses, did I miss the memo on something replacing hair growth?

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by ineedasername on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:37PM (#28426582)
did I miss the memo on something replacing hair growth

Men have been giving it a shot for a while, but unfortunately being half bald hasn't yet resulted in commensurate reductions in haircut prices compared to other men. It seems like there's a business opportunity there for a business model based on prices weighted by hair quantity.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:51PM (#28426707)
Trimmers replaced scissors for simple cuts.

Horses and barns still exist as a luxury, and that could be the fate of fancy cuts too.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by pengaru on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:08PM (#28426849)
There will always be a demand for grooming by experienced third-party groomers.

All we're seeing is a population struggling to accept their dollar is rather suddenly worth much less, there's a significant latency to such things sinking in. It can even be generational, some people never learn.

Case in point: When I bought some land in 2018 I paid the asking price, which I thought was perfectly reasonable vs. FMV. When some neighbors came by and welcomed me to the neighborhood, they asked what I paid. When I told them they were shocked and said I overpayed by a lot. This was in 2018, pre-pandemic prices, and the neighbors were an elderly couple who had once owned multiple properties on the block. Their perception of FMV was completely out of touch with reality, and just months later nearby properties similar to mine were selling for 20-50% more than I had paid, still pre-pandemic. Now that the pandemic has completely shocked everything from increasing demand for rural property accessible to city centers, to printing what, trillions of dollars? My place would sell for over double what I paid in 2018, and my elderly neighbors would still be believing it's worth less USD than I paid in 2018, if they were still alive.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:16PM (#28426922)
> There will always be a demand for grooming by experienced third-party groomers.

Sure, just as is their demand for horses.

> All we're seeing is a population struggling to accept their dollar is rather suddenly worth much less, there's a significant latency to such things sinking in. It can even be generational, some people never learn.

https://twitter.com/JWMason1/status/1426245765437952010 it's far from universal across prices. The fact we where so much about prices and not about wages indicates a big bias in which these yeomen-presenting small businesses control the narrative.

I don't own a car, I don't pay for gas. I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary, even with haircuts. If my haircut price did go up, and the barber's wage did too. I do not resent it.

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by pengaru on Sunday September 05, 2021 @03:54PM (#28427225)
> I don't own a car, I don't pay for gas. I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary, even with haircuts. If my haircut price did go up, and the barber's wage did too. I do not resent it.

I've definitely noticed prices going up, but have been mostly dismissive of it as either being pathologically pandemic-caused and likely temporary (lumber prices for instance, I happened to be building a new roof throughout the pandemic) or opportunistic vendors not wanting to let a good crisis go to waste and gouging in the fog of the pandemic (a local organics market abruptly increased orange prices 300%/lb a few months ago, without even updating the displayed price).

And you can already find numerous news articles documenting cases of "shrinkflation" in staples like cereals [0], which is just a sneaky way of raising prices. I haven't personally noticed this since I don't consume such goods, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

My assumption is cost of services rendered by small businesses will be more variable and laggy in responding to the reality. Some will delay increasing prices, some will aggressively do so while the pandemic scapegoat is still fresh, some will just close their doors. When it comes to cases delaying price increases, they'll no doubt be exploring all avenues like cutting staff/hours/wages to eat the difference. The problem is, those cases dragging their feet on raising prices, their mentality likely reflects the mentality of their clientele/community. It's a collective of people operating in denial that shit's getting expensive, and yes, your $50 gets you a haircut, go ask for a raise, USD is inflationary.

[0] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/07/06/1012409112/bew...

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Ericson2314 on Monday September 06, 2021 @10:38AM (#28434090)
> My assumption is cost of services rendered by small businesses will be more variable and laggy in responding to the reality.

Are you saying that you see the lack of correlation of the prices in the chart not as evidence inflation is over hyped, but as evidence of an inflation that is still working it's way through the supply chains?

Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by toomuchtodo on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:03PM (#28426302)
The salons in question are still charging $18 for a haircut.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by Larrikin on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:10PM (#28426376)
Is this a complaint about an extremely cheap haircut?
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by toomuchtodo on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:17PM (#28426420)
Not at all, it’s an observation of a business model breaking down.
Re:It's not a labor shortage – it's a wage and workers right... by birdyrooster on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:03PM (#28426306)
Maybe people never needed to pay for haircuts in the first place