It is only recently that we’ve (in the West) had a generation or two of the majority of us being raised without suffering direct experience of war.
Just as children who are abused often go on to be abusers in adulthood, I suspect societies that suffer war often become abusive post-war.
Maybe it's not a cycle, but genetic instead. It would appear like a cycle because the children will end up doing what the parents did, but they might simply be predisposed to it.
They did their best with the tools and knowledge they had available to them.
Would I hit my kids? Probably not, I can see some value in it, but I think ultimately your parenting style shouldn't deviate too much from their own surroundings - that is what causes more harm IMO.
YMMV
So what does this statement reveal about me?
The other is softer - I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child. Could it build toughness? Might my child be more likely to stand up to a bully?
From a self defence perspective, a big part of personal development is overcoming aversion to pain - eg not flinching in boxing/mma.
In any case I think there are alternatives to learning these lessons and disciplining your children and I think in our environment it would do a lot of emotional damage that isn't worth the benefits - hence why I probably won't hit my children.
That said, I find it curious that only one to two generations ago it was fully the norm.
Aren't you worried this de-stigmatizes violence, and could lead either to adoption of violence as a problem-solving tool, or in general a society that accepts everyday violence?
I'm living in a place where I never have felt physically threatened, not at dark streets or drunk alone or whatever. I do recognize large part of this is privilege of being a male, but I've always felt my physical well-being isn't threatened. I'd never try to fight back unless that's the last option, rather de-escalate, run away, call police.
>I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child
I feel like this is a story we were handed in prior generations (for context, I am 45) where people (specifically men) need to be "tough" but I don't think anyone really defined what that meant or why.
Maybe tough is a dirty word. Not tough in the toxic masculine sense but tough as in resilient.
Being physically tough can often build a self confidence and mental strength that many people underestimate.
You'll never get me to agree that people don't need to be tough. Just as you should wear a seatbelt even if you're the safest driver in the world, you should be tough because you never know when adversity may come. Just like how you can't control for drivers around you. Maybe in a world only operating self driving cars can we stop wearing seat belts - and yet random failure will still happen. Bad weather, network failure, cosmic ray bitflips take your pick.
Given you are 45, people of your parents' generations came from truly tough times. Plenty of people I know from my parents' generation remember what was like to be truly hungry.
I've seen the UK slowly become more violent and dangerous in my own lifetime.
We're facing increasingly unequal times, geopolitical tensions are high as world powers go for hegemon. We have a displaced workforce - much like the run up to WW1. Climate change may well bring even greater hardship.
Summer lasted all of about 1.5 generations, I hope my children will be tough so that they have the resilience to face whatever the world throws at them and pick themselves up and always move forwards when they navigate the world we leave behind for them.
By the time I was 18 I had that reckless abandon and confidence that only an 18 year old can have - that feeling of invincibility and that belief that anything is possible.
Fast forward 10 years later after years of working super hard and not doing much exercise and accruing postural issues, I went skiing and felt very vulnerable and mortal - a stark shift from the me of 10 years prior!
When I hit my 30s I made reacquiring that fitness again and started exercising super hard. Like 10-15 hours a week of intense physical training. To my surprise, I actually started to feel almost like an 18 year old again. I couldn't believe my subconscious outlook on life could be so malleable.
What does this have to do with hitting kids and toughness? I've digressed a bit - I guess having some of that stoic grit is worth developing in children but I am undecided whether hitting children builds it in them.
I mean, you can let someone touch a hot stove, or not. Is letting them learn for themselves abusive? I believe that was how I learned that specific lesson, not by being hit when I reached.
On the other hand, there are things that you can't let someone learn for themselves because they won't live through it.
And what about hurting other people? Is it possible that there is an empathy circuit that doesn't necessarily get wired properly if early on, pain isn't connected to hurting others?
This doesn't have to be applied by humans in all cases. You bother the cat, it slaps you.
If physical punishment is unacceptable, does that mean the cat should be declawed so it can't do that?
I provided a few things that I thought were in kind of a gray area, in order that you might clarify how you categorize them and how you think such situations could be avoided or handled differently.
It seems to me that my comment was manifestly a combination of factual claims and questions about your beliefs, not justifications of anything.
I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease. "My parents hit me and I turned out fine" is often a revealing statement. And a defense of parents who may not deserve it but coping with that is harder.