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Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:23PM (#28351035)
Hi there - co-founder/CEO of Helm here.

We don't make the subscription optional at this time because the overwhelming majority of people on the Internet do not have a static IP address with a corresponding PTR record, which is required if you want to have deliverable email. There are other ways to handle domain registration, DNS and backups on your own, but we believe the subscription is a pretty great value for the convenience it provides.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by noncoml on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:35PM (#28351100)
I love your idea and execution. But requiring yearly subscription is defeating the purpose of "Break away from big tech" as I am now tied to your company instead of big tech. What's the point in this?
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:40PM (#28351124)
You can see elsewhere where I discuss what the subscription provides. I think there's a huge difference between subscribing to companies that share customer values around privacy and security vs being at the mercy of companies looking to extract as much value from your data as possible.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by a3n on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:33PM (#28351469)
Speaking cynically and pessimistically, when it's your planned exit and who are your potential buyers?
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by phone8675309 on Monday August 30, 2021 @07:36AM (#28354608)
Keeping an eye out for when their "fantastic journey" ends.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by noncoml on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:52PM (#28351209)
OK, thanks for your reply. JFYI It's not what you think that will make or break your business; it's what your potential customers think, that matters.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:47PM (#28351550)
If people are lumping in all tech companies in with big tech, we should all be concerned about that.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by Talanes on Sunday August 29, 2021 @08:28PM (#28351769)
People who are consciously trying to de-couple from big tech are the same people who are conscious about lock-in effects.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Monday August 30, 2021 @01:14AM (#28352974)
There isn't any lock-in using a Helm. You can always access and export your data on the LAN using standards-based clients to get your data wherever you'd like it to be.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by diftraku on Monday August 30, 2021 @03:20AM (#28353415)
You say "standards-based clients", does this mean I do not have direct access to the filesystem? Or a shell account for that matter?

Using email as an example, having to transfer email with drag'n'drop in something like Thunderbird is clunky, slow but works to a degree.

Having direct access to the mailbox directory on the filesystem would make it easier to transfer out/in (assuming you already have your emails in the same format).

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by asymptosis on Monday August 30, 2021 @03:53AM (#28353564)
Arguing with people who are trying to tell you how to market better isn't going to help you market better. Quite the opposite.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by solarkraft on Sunday August 29, 2021 @10:01PM (#28352179)
Not only that, those are one of the big reasons for the migration away.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:04PM (#28351304)
Is the subscription mandatory. What about the minority of users who do have a static IP address. Should all users be given an option to arrange their own static IP address as well as to subscribe to a pre-packaged deal. They might be able to get a better price than $99/yr, or better terms. Whats to lose by having options.

These are honest questions because I have often thought about a similar project where a static IP is required and wondered if and how it could support itself.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:03PM (#28351921)
Another way to think about this is that the service is a static IP for $99/yr and the rest is "free", i.e., optional. Perhaps the majority of users will be attracted by the "free" stuff, but a minority might see a static IPv4 as having many potentially useful advantages for personal computing.^1

This is how I view the internet. I pay for access, and this gives me access to, among other things, the web, and various "free services" offered on the web by so-called "tech" companies.^2 There is no obligation that I have to use them. I can choose what I think is useful and ignore the rest.

1. Previously we have seen the static IPv4 address marketed by ISPs in the US as a "business account". Personal use is not contemplated.

2. But the IP addresses we get from ISPs suck for things like running a smtpd. We need solutions to this problem besides "tech" company middlemen.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:09PM (#28351343)
We might consider adding support in the future - we're not philosophically against it, but it is more work to develop and support.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by solarkraft on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:36PM (#28351489)
It's honestly a red flag.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:46PM (#28351542)
A red flag for what? I would like to understand this better.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by solarkraft on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:49PM (#28351564)
Company integrity/actually wanting to empower users. This unreasonably forces dependency on the company and bricks the device once support inevitably ends. That's usually a pretty good indication for a user-hostile company.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:52PM (#28351582)
I'm not sure where you got that the device would be bricked. Can you point me to where you saw this?

All data is accessible on local ports on the LAN, with or without the subscription service.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by ud_0 on Monday August 30, 2021 @05:50AM (#28354154)
I think there is a potential issue with the overall concept and dichotomy between "owning" a device to "own" your data, and using external services that must be rented to make that happen. But it sounds like a fixable marketing/communication issue. To elaborate:

Considering R&D and manufacture, it looks to me like you're offering the box itself at cost or even below. Your obvious competitor is Synology, and they have an extensible storage space concept.

So I agree with you that the meat is probably in the Apps. You're offering an email solution as the killer subscription service using somewhat questionable marketing text. But again, that can be fixed. If you were to say "okay, we're planning on offering a range of subscription apps where the core concept is to provide a public-internet service endpoint and the resulting data gets funneled directly into your home box" then you're much clearer about the value you provide and customers would have an expectation that a) their app still works if the subscription expires (it just doesn't get any new data) and b) what they're paying for in the first place. Throw in an info graph that shows the data flow!

Of course, you might have to contend with open source implementations that offer the same endpoint services as a self-hosted option BUT you could even embrace that and make the protocols open because I suspect that the convenience of your all-in-one services would trump the complexity of self hosting in most cases.

Other services/apps you could offer along the same lines could be: federated social media, video downloading and conversion, video and audio chat, collaboration and office tools, home automation, and of course cloud backup (not the paltry 128GB currently folded into the subscription package, but a separate pay-as-you-go solution with "unlimited" storage).

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by solarkraft on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:57PM (#28352164)
The subscription not being optional ("We don't make the subscription optional at this time", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28351035), with unspecified consequences of not having one.

One thing I definitely gather from that comment is that E-Mails wouldn't work, which appears to be the main selling point of the device.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @11:49PM (#28352651)
There is an ongoing cost for email to work (static IP, DNS, tunneling for traffic) - this is why there is a subscription. It's not very complicated or malicious.

If a customer doesn't want a subscription, they can still use the Helm on their local network and get access to all their data. Running without a subscription is not something we currently support because of a lot of variables that can prevent email from working consistently, creating a heavy support burden (which is costly) along with bad customer experiences. It's best for people wary of a subscription to go down the DIY path (and we end up with a lot of DIY switchers once they realize how much effort it is).

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by carderne on Monday August 30, 2021 @12:52AM (#28352893)
So it sounds like if you are acquired/close shop/triple your fees, the hardware will continue working with a limited feature set forever. If HN-type people are at all your target market, I’d make this a lot clearer somewhere. After the umpteenth time, people are wary of hardware that randomly turns into bricks. It’s got nothing to do with “big tech”.
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by solarkraft on Monday August 30, 2021 @07:01AM (#28354434)
> Running without a subscription is not something we currently support because of a lot of variables that can prevent email from working consistently

No problem. I see the technical difficulties with that and that you don’t want to support it. But is it possible?

If you want peoples’ (definitely mine) trust I’d suggest clearly decoupling the subscription from the device and communicating that it’s only for the E-Mail routing.

Otherwise it feels like renting a device with some extra initial cost, which is like 20% as good as actually owning something (If I’m already renting just take away the setup cost and make it 12$/mo).

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by thesausageking on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:14PM (#28351367)
How much revenue, if any, do you give back to the Nextcloud project?
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by TedDoesntTalk on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:32PM (#28351088)
How do you manage the spam reputation of the IP addresses you use for mail delivery when some of your customers may be sending spam?
Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by gsreenivas on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:38PM (#28351120)
We have relationships with key ESPs and email security providers to help with managing reputation/deliverability issues.

There are much cheaper ways to send spam effectively than using a Helm so we haven't seen real issues around this.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by dsr_ on Monday August 30, 2021 @06:57AM (#28354413)
The problem is not that spammers will buy your boxes and subscriptions and ISP connections in order to spam.

The problem is that spammers will get into your customers' boxes and use them to spam.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by philderbeast on Monday August 30, 2021 @08:05AM (#28354804)
so provide a dynamic dns solution with one of the huge number of providers out there?

there are plenty of ways to get around that particular problem (although a cloud server is one of the best). so why not provide the information and let the user decide rather then telling us all we need to use your subscription service.

Re:Helm is a personal server that lives where you do by hestefisk on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:41PM (#28351515)
Could you offer both? It’s a cool product but I just don’t see the need for a proprietary middle-person.