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Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by kongin on Saturday August 28, 2021 @09:31PM (#28343247)
The reason so many people hate maths is because maths is taught so poorly: https://www.rangevoting.org/FeynTexts.html

>The reason was that the books were so lousy. They were false. They were hurried. They would try to be rigorous, but they would use examples (like automobiles in the street for "sets") which were almost OK, but in which there were always some subtleties. The definitions weren't accurate. Everything was a little bit ambiguous – they weren't smart enough to understand what was meant by "rigor." They were faking it. They were teaching something they didn't understand, and which was, in fact, useless, at that time, for the child.

>[...] That's the way everything was: Everything was written by somebody who didn't know what the hell he was talking about, so it was a little bit wrong, always! And how we are going to teach well by using books written by people who don't quite understand what they're talking about, I cannot understand. I don't know why, but the books are lousy; UNIVERSALLY LOUSY!

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by AndrewOMartin on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:57AM (#28346717)
One memorable example of this was a book which said you could tell the temperature of a star by the wavelength of the light it emitted. It then asked you to calculate the temperature of stars in a depicted galaxy. I'm sure there are some subtleties that are not exactly perfect but good enough for a school textbook.

The part that made Feynman erupt in anger was the follow up question, "what is the total temperature of the galaxy".

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by bmn__ on Sunday August 29, 2021 @02:57PM (#28349462)
The story is in the page linked above. ctrl+f temperature
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by pharmakom on Sunday August 29, 2021 @10:58AM (#28347217)
Can you explain this?
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by DuskStar on Sunday August 29, 2021 @11:11AM (#28347330)
The problem is incredibly ill defined. Do they want the sum of the temperatures calculated above? (Nonsensical) The temperature that the galaxy would have if you mixed everything together? (Insufficient information on star size and material composition) The average of the stars temperatures? (ALSO nonsensical!)
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by mattkrause on Monday August 30, 2021 @11:43AM (#28356801)
What's wrong with the average temperature over many stars?

It gives you the best possible estimate (in a MSE sense) for the temperature of a new star for which you know nothing about.

It may not be a great estimate (e.g, the distribution is multimodal because stars come in various types), but it doesn't seem obviously nonsensical.

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by jmount on Sunday August 29, 2021 @11:13AM (#28347348)
I haven't seen the source. But I am guessing the anger is temperature is a number that doesn't make since to blindly add. Example: 2 boiling pots are not 200 degrees C. Or more technically temperature is the mean molecular kinetic energy, an average not a total.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by mattkrause on Sunday August 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#28347487)
The really frustrating part is that a trivial edit--ask for the average temperature instead--could make it into a sensible question.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by vlovich123 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @11:50AM (#28347664)
An average of an average does not yield any number that has any useful definition.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by mattkrause on Monday August 30, 2021 @11:33AM (#28356662)
Could you elaborate?

The average (over 24 hours) temperature yesterday was 25˚C. You could certainly ask how that compares to other August 29ths in different years.

This even has a name ("grand mean"), so I'm surprised that someone thinks it's never useful.

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by vlovich123 on Monday August 30, 2021 @12:05PM (#28357085)
I may have overstated slightly. The mean of means is equivalent to the overall mean iff

> the subsamples have the same number of data points

It's unlikely to be useful in any other situation. Certainly not for averaging the temperature of a galaxy.

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by mattkrause on Monday August 30, 2021 @08:38PM (#28362705)
Yes, that's obviously how the math works out.

Both the overall mean and mean-of-means have sensible interpretations though.

Suppose you observe a random sample of stars and find their temperatures to be 6000, 6250, 6750, and 7000C. The best possible guess[0] for the temperature of a new star drawn from that population is 6500C. The average temperature of all the starstuff may be different if one star is larger than another, but that's an answer to a slightly different question.

In fact, I would argue that the mean-of-means is often a more appropriate summary statistic than the overall mean of the observations when there are repeated measurements.

[0] Under L2 loss, with no prior, etc etc

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by RichardCA on Sunday August 29, 2021 @02:05PM (#28348992)
It's an easy mistake to make, to have incorrect pedagogy around the concept of temperature, and Feynman was fanatical about correct pedagogy. This is always good: https://youtu.be/Q1lL-hXO27Q
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by dekhn on Monday August 30, 2021 @10:15AM (#28355866)
total... or mean? it's an intensive property (something that was "taught" to me many years ago, in school).
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by faeriechangling on Saturday August 28, 2021 @10:56PM (#28343682)
Are there any books that aren't lousy or is it truly universal?
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by codetheweb on Saturday August 28, 2021 @11:18PM (#28343785)
I did Art of Problem Solving in high school which has excellent textbooks. Certainly not for everyone though.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by abrax3141 on Saturday August 28, 2021 @11:26PM (#28343821)
There are many many wonderful math books, and many many wonderful math resources on youtube. (As well as, of course, many many terrible ones!) I second AOPS! They have a fantastic series for younger kids called "Beast Academy" (https://beastacademy.com), and their challenge problem sets are fantastic! The same blog has a couple of other posts about them: https://leosstemhacks.wordpress.com/2019/11/06/the-three-bes...
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by netr0ute on Saturday August 28, 2021 @11:56PM (#28343958)
There's also Life of Fred which is definitely different to anything else out there.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by jabajabadu on Sunday August 29, 2021 @12:18AM (#28344083)
Israel Gelfand wrote a number of amazing books covering many areas of high school math.
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by bradrn on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:27AM (#28345377)
I enjoyed Measurement [0]. I was unsurprised when I eventually learnt that its author had previously written Lockhart’s Lament [1].

[0] https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?content=reviews&isbn...

[1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament....

Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by bmn__ on Sunday August 29, 2021 @02:58PM (#28349472)
Re:NP Complete 3rd Grade Math Problems (2018) by jtc331 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:46AM (#28345941)
The Singapore Math curriculum is fantastic.