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Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by toxik on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:15AM (#28299764)
The point in the NeuralHash and PSI system is to preserve user privacy as far as possible. From a technical standpoint, it is not essential - a NeuralHash function that returns 0x0000… for everything would still catch CSAM. It's just that it would upload every single image on the user's device.

Now, how well this NeuralHash does preserve privacy is a different question, and /not/ one that is being answered by the original post here. In fact, I've not seen anybody look at the hash distribution over natural images, which would be an actual argument against the system.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by Retr0id on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:21AM (#28299788)
It doesn't really matter whether all images are uploaded, or just 1 in x (for large value of x), due to the Panopticon effect.
Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by ithkuil on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:53AM (#28299998)
Let's not forget what the alternative is: this is about images that are uploaded on icloud anyway. The alternative is to upload the image in clear (or with ane encryption key that apple controls), and let apple run the CSAM filter on their servers.

Apple now has the ability to encrypt the images before sending them to icloud, with a private key you own. Except that some percentage of images that match the CSAM fingerprint with their neural feature extractor will be sent to a CSAM filter on the server side (whose workings we don't have many details about)

This whole thing backfired on Apple entirely due to psychological effects, not because they are really doing anything more "panopticon" that they would already able to do now on their icloud storage (after all people are ready sending their photos to apple)

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by ben-schaaf on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @07:09AM (#28300080)
They already have the decryption keys for iCloud. Undoubtedly they've already been running a similar CSAM filter server-side for ages. The only thing doing this stuff client side has done is reduce privacy and erode trust.
Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by madeofpalk on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @07:48AM (#28300408)
> Undoubtedly they've already been running a similar CSAM filter server-side for ages

Apparently they have not - They say facebook reported something like 20m images in a year, and Apple reported 250.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by saynay on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @08:14AM (#28300642)
I don't see how the privacy is any more eroded than it already was?

Eroded trust, sure, but that is mostly because they did a terrible job communicating it.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by PolCPP on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @08:29AM (#28300788)
Theres not even a need to do that, upload the encrypted image and its neuralhash.
Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by ithkuil on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @09:07AM (#28301161)
What should they do if the neuralhash matches CSAM? Should they trust that the nerualhash actually matches real CSAM and you will should be reported to the police? That's clearly wrong, since there are going to be false positives, by design.

The whole point for this is to be a probabilistic filter, so that they need to run the real CSAM scanner on a subset of files.

You can fall into two camps:

a) apple should never ever scan my private images I upload on their cloud. b) apple can scan the images once they reach their servers.

If you pick (a), then clearly neuralhash shouldn't exist and you can argue against that on the ground that you want utter privacy. But you have to be consistent:every other cloud service that does scan the images server side should receive the same critique.

If you pick (b), then you must recognize that this additional machinery doesn't increase their reach to your private data, but quite the opposite, it allows them to implement e2e encryption for 99.9% of your content. You may argue that it's unnecessary and confusing and spooky and be afraid of the slippery slope precendent for other uses.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by simion314 on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @07:03AM (#28300053)
But if Apple really cares about children why they did not done this scans in iCloud like all the others? Did not care as much as Google or Facebook? Seems to me like Apple does not care at all and seems more like a dev with big ego wanted to add neural hashes to his CV but if you can explain how Apple cared for children all this years but only now are doing something I really want to see the explanation
Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by theshrike79 on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @08:31AM (#28300810)
Because Apple is the one company that actively tries not to know anything about you.

FB and Google will exhaustively analyse every single facet of your online presence and use your pictures to train their ML models for face detection and object detection.

Apple, on the other hand, even explicitly splits Map directions to segments so that they can't know where you left from and where you are going to.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by simion314 on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @08:59AM (#28301059)
Apple was sending unencrypted on the network what application you started, if they would "actively tries not to know anything about you" they could have implemented this better.

Anyway how is your assumption make sense , Apple cares about children and about your privacy so scanning your images in iCloud was wrong until 2021 when something changed, what changed? does Apple cares more about children starting from now or they care less about privacy? or are they forced to do it?

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:40AM (#28299919)
The “actual argument” against the system that this provides is that Apple lied about the likelihood of hash collisions.

Therefore, why trust any of their other claims?

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by simondotau on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:55AM (#28300010)
Apple's claims are based on the statistical likelihood that there would be 30 collisions with CSAM hashes within one user account.

Just because someone has found an image of a nearly featureless diagonal thing which collides with another image of a nearly featureless diagonal thing, that doesn't disprove Apple's claims.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by BeefWellington on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @09:07AM (#28301173)
> Apple's claims are based on the statistical likelihood that there would be 30 collisions with CSAM hashes within one user account.

Given people can now generate images that collide, it seems like the statistical likelihood has drastically changed since it was originally announced.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by toxik on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:57AM (#28300018)
I find this an unconvincing argument as well, you're saying that because Apple made a false claim, any claim may be valid. This is obviously not the case, what they did was to, albeit likely knowingly, calculate the hash collision probability /if each bit is a coin flip/, which comes out to pow(2, -k) for k bits. It's tiny. Of course, each bit is /not/ an independent coin flip under the NeuralHash function.

So again the actual argument becomes: what is that distribution like?

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by FabHK on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @08:10AM (#28300611)
> what they did was to, albeit likely knowingly, calculate the hash collision probability /if each bit is a coin flip/, which comes out to pow(2, -k) for k bits. It's tiny.

I doubt that's what they did. I think they ran tests on huge numbers of pictures, got an estimate, put in a safety factor, and determined the threshold to hit their target (and put in another safety buffer then).

Naturally occurring collisions are not going to be an issue, and adversarial ones neither, I predict. Just as with current cloud providers.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by zepto on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @10:57AM (#28302447)
> that because Apple made a false claim

Apple never made a false claim. They have never anywhere stated that neuralhash makes false positives at 1 in a trillion. Only that that is the rate for the system as a whole to flag accounts for review. The explicitly mention that they will vary the number of matches needed to maintain this if it turns out to be higher or lower based on images in the wild.

There are good arguments against this system but most of the technical debate seems to have devolved into amplifying lies now.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by read_if_gay_ on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @07:22AM (#28300165)
Fine, let’s say they didn’t lie, they made misleading claims.

Still. Why trust them after that?

If a company can make my own smartphone report me to the police, and they want my business, they better prove I can trust them. Apple has plainly done the opposite.

The whole ordeal is just utterly 1984.

Re:A catalog of naturally occurring images whose Apple Neura... by tsimionescu on Saturday August 28, 2021 @05:41AM (#28336818)
Sure, but a NeuralHash system with a collision chance of 100% would obviously not be abused to say NeuralHash collision implies CSAM - the secondary validation system will definitely be the last bastion.

In contrast, a NH system believed to have a collision chance of 1 in a trillion trillion may well be considered infallible, and any detection be directly reported as CSAM, with the 'backend verification' amounting to nothing more than a rubber stamp.

Of course, if you implicitly trust Apple not to do the second, than you're right, the NH collision rate doesn't matter too much.