H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like.

It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.

This is true up and down the market. Here in New Zealand we've had a lot of squealing about "shortages in essential skills" from, I shit you not, cafe owners, bottle shop owners, you name it. We have restaurants who charge, I am not making this up, $300/head claiming that if they can't import cheap waiters paid $18/hour they'll go out of business.

The sad thing is that workers - and we see this in this very thread - end up attacking immigrant workers (who are merely trying to improve their lives), rather than employers who are exploiting workers on employer-tied work visas (both in terms of up-front pay, but often in terms of kickbacks and the like) to drive down local pay and conditions.

The answer would be that if there is a genuine labour shortage in local skills, the work permit should be in that industry/skill set, not employer tied. That would allow migrant workers to better their lot (and, given that many support extended family on remittences, whole communities) while allowing them to avoid being exploited by agencies or shitty employers; it would also avoid migrant labour being mis-used to depress local terms and conditions.

Unfortunately it seems easier to convince people to vote for anti-immigrant, often bigoted, political platforms than to convince workers to see their common interests.

There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better.

If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)

I think the argument that he is making is that work visas are used to increase the labor pool (creating a "buyers market" for companies that are hiring). If a company cant find anyone willing to accept their offer then they need to improve the compensation and working environment... or they could hire a worker from the visa pool, thus suppressing wages, benefits, WLB, etc...

It's labor-economics 101.

It doesn't matter what the job is, if you pay enough then someone will take the job (and become qualified if needed).

ex: I'd scrub the shit out of sewage pipes with a toothbrush if you paid me enough, but most companies would just say that there is a "skilled labor shortage".

Thanks for the explanation. This description is easy to grasp and makes sense. I tried to look for some numbers following your description and it seems like that the H1B wages are not lower than local market in average according to this Glassdoor study [0]. After reading it I was curious to see what’s the ratio of H1B for tech jobs (which is probably dominating the Glassdoor study) and apparently it’s the majority according to this Pew Research study [1].

[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-a...

1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive

2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch.

3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better

1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries.

2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise.

3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)

Maybe we have different definitions of what "High skilled" truly means. All the "High skilled" people I know (those who actually qualified and got the High skilled visas in various developed countries) are influenced by the 3 points I wrote above. Also you are confusing immigrant (H1B is an immigration visa unlike L1) with emigrant, the mentality is very different between the two. High skilled immigrant != Emigrant

I'm in the highly skilled category myself, and half the people I interact with have been there at one point or another. From what I have seen, the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity is likely to do so again, should a better opportunity arise. Many people I know have worked for a few years in the US, but most of them have left for better opportunities elsewhere. And once they grow older, the "better opportunities" are more likely to involve living closer to friends and family or a good environment for raising kids than higher salaries.

The immigrant/emigrant question is a matter of perspective. An immigrant to one country is an emigrant from another.

H-1B is a dual-purpose non-immigrant visa. When you have obtained/extended your H-1B status and are applying for the entry visa required for international travel, you are required to provide a permanent address outside the US. Once you enter the country, the immigration officials really don't like it if you claim you are living in the US. And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.

> the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity

I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa

> And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.

F1 visa is technically a non-immigrant visa and yet they are allowed entry. The entry ban has nothing to do with whether your visa is immigrant or not

> I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa

I don't think I've ever met highly skilled immigrants like that. Many people first move to a new country in search of better life and then become highly skilled there, but those are not the kind of immigrants this discussion is about.

The highly skilled immigrants I know switch jobs once in a while, and sometimes the new job happens to be in another country. While they are building new lives in their current country of residence, they are not truly committed to remaining there. Some stay long enough to get citizenship and some even retire in the country, but the reason to move again may come at any time. The first international move is usually the hardest. After that, you have accepted the idea that switching countries is possible, and international moves are no longer that different from domestic moves.

That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.

That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers

There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.

I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.

That is because you call it H1B transfer, but in reality it is a new application for a new job position, just that you can do it any time and not wait for the lottery. RFEs are part of the process, if your supporting documents don't establish that you have the qualifications for the new role, you need to provide supporting evidence. It has always existed, regardless of any administration.

Also, because it is a new application, your old one does not expire, so you can always continue your current job till you sort things out. And you can always file a third application with a third employer if things don't work out with your RFE. Changing jobs isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, unless you really don't meet the minimum.

PS: Been doing it for more than a decade without any problems

Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.

My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive.

Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.

> there's something else going on.

There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process.

Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality.

Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).

>> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor

This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?

Ten in a row, apparently.